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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
No I mean the massacre of the Byzantines inhabiting Constantinople when it fell in the 15th century. |
Actually, at the time of the conquest the population of Constantinople was tiny already. I quote this following passage from Steven Runciman's "Fall of Constantinople", describing the state of the city before the siege (pp. 10-11). Brackets are mine:
"The city itself, within its fourteen miles of encircling walls, had even in its greatest days been full of parks and gardens, dividing the various quarters. But now [1453] many quarters had disappeared, and fields and orchards seperated those that remained. The [Arab] traveller Ibn Battuta in the mid-fourteenth century counted thirteen distinct townlets within the walls. To Gonzales Clavijo [Ambassador of Don enry III of Castille and Leon, on his way to Samarkand] in the first years of the fifteenth century, it was astounding that so huge a city should be so full of ruins; and [French nobleman and traveller] Bertrandon de la Broquiere a few years later was aghast at its emptiness. Pero Tafur in 1437 remarked on its sparse and poverty stricken population. In many districts yiu wiuld have thought that you were in the open countryside, with wild roses blooming in the ehdgerows in spring and nighthingales singing in the copses
At the south-east end of the city the buildings of the old Imperial Palace were no longer habitable. The last Latin Emperor [from the line of those that captured the City with the 4th cursade in 1204, before losing it to the Byzantines again in 1261] in his extremity, after selling ,ost of the city's holy relics to Saint Louis and before pawning his son and heir to the Venetians, had stripped the lead off all the roofs and disposed of them for cash. Neither [later Byzantine Emperors] Michael Palaeologus nor any of his successors had ever had the money to restore them. Only a few of the churches were maintained in its grounds..."
Philip Mansel's "Constantinople: City of World's Desire" provides another statistic (p. 3):
"...After the city reverted to the Byzantines in 1261, repeated defeats of the Byzantine Empire by its Muslim enemies, and the civil wars between rival emperors, had reduced the city's population from a peak of 400,000 inhabitants to about 50,000 Greeks - or 'Romans', as they were still proud to call themselves. By 1400 it had shrunk to a collection of small towns, sepereated by farms and orchards...
p.5 (in conjunction with molly bloom's  post): "...After its fall, in accordance with Islamic law governing treatment of a city which had refused to surrender, the Sultan's troops were allowed to enslave and deport around 30.000 Christian inhabitants. Thousands more [died in the first three days after the conquest]..."
On the other hand, Mehmet the Conqueror wanted his new capital to be a world city of unparalelled grandeur, so in the years following the conquest, he brought (in addition to Turkish settlers) many thousands of Greeks and Armenians to Istanbul, to revitalise crafts and trade in the City. Therefore, ironically most of the later Christian community of Istanbul (Greeks and Armenians)were descendants of settlers brought over from the Anatolian and Balkan holdings of the Ottoman Empire, their numbers reaching a number far outstripping the Christian population of the city before the conquest.
Unlike their contemporaries in Europe, Ottomans took pride in the multiculturalism of their Empire, saw the diversity of peoples they ruled over as a strength. Until the advent of nationalism, that is... 
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:34
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The Byzantium Empire was dead already after the 4th cursade by the Franks from Europe. The ott acturally honour all they treathy they have have with Byzantium Empire. The last empour of Byzantium free the Truk from all treathy that stop them from takeing the city, I think he want Byzantium to go down fighting instead of dyeing slowly.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Oh you've done it now!!!!!
Turkish girls are the hottest on the planet. Nobody else even comes CLOSE. |
Is she was sister or one of your 4 wifes.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:34
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Also very time than cursade was called in Europe the local jews where target by the cursader also as well the jews in the middle east where target by the cursader.
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Bereta_Eder
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dp
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 22-03-2004 at 22:05
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Bereta_Eder
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Greeks and Armenians came to the City but they were actually the "lifeforce" of it since they were traders of great resource. When they were killed and expelled, after the advert of nationalism virtually the whole middle class of the City was wiped out and it actually suffered great poverty. The same happened in Smyrni, now Izmir in 1922 after the failed greek invasion. Ottomans also used "Romans" as translators and diplomats (!!) since they were not well versed in languages in general.
It's true that the Empire had given great leniency to the church but that was so in order to help control the christians. It held the church accountable for every riot or uprising of them. Indicatively the Patriarch at the time of the greek revolution (who incidently had condemned it) was hanged by the sultan as punishment for failing on his duties as were dictated by the sultan, an act which created much sympathy for the "greek cause" in europe. (which europe had initally condemned the greek revolt as "demonic" since after barely having recuperated from the napolean wars it strived to avert any uprising and fighting anywhere in europe using -what else - "catchy" religious phrases  )
Eventually I think the downfall of the Ottoman Empire was its resistance to progress. When Europe was plunging in Enlightnment, the Ottoman Empire stayed barricated in static societal norms. As an example was the casual orders issued by Sultans to chop the head and bring it to them of anyone he deemed as criminal. (not very enlightened!!!)
Actually eventually I think the greek revolution was simply a societal need for progress more than anything else. It's no wonder that the onces who initially financed it were no others than traders.
The exclusion of the Balkans from the Enlightment tide of Europe I think plays a huge part of many of today's societal and other problems.
BTW byzantium had grown too rigid and was as said already defeated by the Franks and the crusaders. Constantinople fell as a ripe apple.
Just my two cents
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 22-03-2004 at 22:50
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
The Ottoman Empire was actually unbelievably cruel in some respects. Such as the practise of jenissars where babies were snatched from the embraces of their mothers by Turkish soldiers to be raised as soldiers for the Ottomans. So it was clearly not all love and honey at any rate |
So unbelievably cruel that Christian families actually volunteered their sons for a place in the Janissaries.
'But there was also another side to the system of recruiting. Owing to the severe oppression and the great poverty which prevailed in the Christian communities, many a boy, in order to escape this misery, was only too glad to volunteer for the corps, and many parents, to secure a better future for their children, encouraged their sons to enlist. Even from countries outside the Ottoman Empire hordes of youngsters sought admission into the ranks of the Janizaries. The escape from poverty and the riches and great honors which this service offered were great attractions. Turkish officials never failed to hold out these advantages before the starved Christian boys. Indeed, these benefits led the Turkish people to complain against the monopolization of the highest positions in the State by men of Christian birth. Gradually, Turkish boys began to be smuggled into the corps, their parents turning them over to Christians to be delivered to recruiting officers in place of their own children. '
http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/modern/janizar.htm
If anyone's interested in the economic and social life of the Ottoman Empire, rather than paiktis's somewhat chauvinistic viewpoint (read: it was all the Armenians and Greeks, I tell ya!) try this book:
http://www.history-asia.com/ An_Eco...0521585805.html
Given that Constantinople was re-established as Istanbul, a city where Roman, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity could exist side by side, where Jews, Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims could live and work at a time when Europe was about to pass into one of the most destructive and murderous phases in its history, I think this is no small achievement for a supposedly 'cruel, barbarous' people.
Cruel is, as cruel does- the Spanish tortured, killed and exiled Spanish Jews (who fled to the 'cruel' Ottoman Empire- imagine that) Moorish and Jewish converts to Christianity and Spanish Moors.
The French tortured, murdered and expelled French Protestants.
The English did the same with their English Catholics, and Puritans.
There were wars of religion in France, Germany, Switzerland, the Holy Roman Empire, the Netherlands and Belgium, wholesale massacres, etc, etc.
In short- the Ottomans were no more cruel than any other state in the area.
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CharlesBHoff
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el paso texas
May 2002
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
So unbelievably cruel that Christian families actually volunteered their sons for a place in the Janissaries.
'But there was also another side to the system of recruiting. Owing to the severe oppression and the great poverty which prevailed in the Christian communities, many a boy, in order to escape this misery, was only too glad to volunteer for the corps, and many parents, to secure a better future for their children, encouraged their sons to enlist. Even from countries outside the Ottoman Empire hordes of youngsters sought admission into the ranks of the Janizaries. The escape from poverty and the riches and great honors which this service offered were great attractions. Turkish officials never failed to hold out these advantages before the starved Christian boys. Indeed, these benefits led the Turkish people to complain against the monopolization of the highest positions in the State by men of Christian birth. Gradually, Turkish boys began to be smuggled into the corps, their parents turning them over to Christians to be delivered to recruiting officers in place of their own children. '
http://www.xenophongi.org/milhist/modern/janizar.htm
If anyone's interested in the economic and social life of the Ottoman Empire, rather than paiktis's somewhat chauvinistic viewpoint (read: it was all the Armenians and Greeks, I tell ya!) try this book:
http://www.history-asia.com/ An_Eco...0521585805.html
Given that Constantinople was re-established as Istanbul, a city where Roman, Orthodox and Protestant Christianity could exist side by side, where Jews, Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims could live and work at a time when Europe was about to pass into one of the most destructive and murderous phases in its history, I think this is no small achievement for a supposedly 'cruel, barbarous' people.
Cruel is, as cruel does- the Spanish tortured, killed and exiled Spanish Jews (who fled to the 'cruel' Ottoman Empire- imagine that) Moorish and Jewish converts to Christianity and Spanish Moors.
The French tortured, murdered and expelled French Protestants.
The English did the same with their English Catholics, and Puritans.
There were wars of religion in France, Germany, Switzerland, the Holy Roman Empire, the Netherlands and Belgium, wholesale massacres, etc, etc.
In short- the Ottomans were no more cruel than any other state in the area. |
In fact the sultan of the Ott send Martin Luther than invi to settle all Lutheran in the Ott Empire under the Empire protection from the Cath Church. Many small Christian sects that where unpol in Europe at that time move to the Ott Empire where they have protection for they belief. Some of them have belief that the Ott themself found stanger and odd.
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Bereta_Eder
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Also molly bloom, I'm not so sure where you get the idea that the Ottoman empire was "well governed" or tolerant.
The absence of rule was a common practise, an unbeliever could never testify against a muslim in the presence of the authorities (the christian's word would always be taken as a lie verus that of a muslim) etc. And a very prefered way of the Sultan to administer "justice" (when he didnt like someone) was beheadement.
And all these as Europe was entering Enlightment.
So cruel and barbarous? Yes most definitely, as much as the europeans only difference that the latter eventually stepped out of it, the Ottomans had to be destroyed.
And the middle class was predominantly Greek and Armenian, yes, at least in the two big western cities, the City (obviously) and Izmir.
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Bereta_Eder
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_In the Ottoman Empire it was the same untill it collapsed.
_People of different faiths, and large numbers of them were already living under the Ottomans. Simply killing them or start expelling them couldn't be contamplated (untill much later).
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Bereta_Eder
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I haven't seen any of my points refuted?
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Bereta_Eder
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But I think we've already agreed that many of their practices were cruel. If they were the same untill they were destroyed as the Europeans were before they entered Englightnemt is a another topic and a huge one at that I'm afraid! Why do you want to make the connection?
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Bereta_Eder
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Also taken from molly bloom's sayings no less
quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Owing to the severe oppression and the great poverty which prevailed in the Christian communities |
So would the people of Christian faith be better off in a Christian country? I think so. For Muslims maybe the Ottoman Empire was paradise, I can't say! If anything christian mothers wouldn't be afraid witless of having their new born babies snatched from their arms given any random night at any case. There are plenty of lamentations written in rocks and old books (since paper was fobidden to the christians IIRC) about those horrible acts. And all that because the Ottomans thought that christians had some special value or would make better fighters...
Last edited by Bereta_Eder on 23-03-2004 at 08:33
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22-03-2004 08:51
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