24-03-2004 23:11									#31
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http://www.geocities.com/kidhistory/didthe.htm

If we are working with older sources, the problem gains a new dimension: other eras (and other cultures, too) have a different notion of the child and childhood (although there are always certain conformities). We can try to circumvent this problem by defining a certain age group (people from birth to age 14, for example) to whom we dedicate our inquiry.

But this doesn't help us much face to face with the sources because they do not always give the age of the persons they speak about. I want to illustrate this problem with the discussion about the Children's Crusade of 1212: until recently, most historians believed that two big groups of children from the German Rhine valley and from North France started in 1212 to liberate the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.

The image of innocent children trying to redeem the corrupted idea of the crusade was so attrac-tive [or a long time that only recent articles evaluated the sources critically. They pointed out that the term ''Children's Crusade'' became common in the sources not before the last third of the 13th century and that it was not mentioned in the most reliable contemporary sources.

These sources described the participants of the migration as people of all ages (from sucklings to aged persons), not only as 'pueri" and ''puellae.'' Some historians even deny that children (under age 14) made up a prevalent part of these migrations. The doubts were intensified by a terminological problem: the Latin word "puer'' which means in most medieval age classifications a boy between 7 and 14 years old,[10] apparently also had a social shading of meaning.

Georges Duby suggests that ''puer" often meant poor farm-laborers, people who could not inherit land during the economical crisis of the 12th arid 13th centurics and became dependent wage workers who usually could not marry. [11] Peter Raedis therefore classcs the ''Children's Crusade'' with the widespread movement of the People's Crusades-migrations of very poor, landless men and women whose last hope was to reach Jerusalem which was for them rather the celestial Jerusalem of the Apocalypse than the earthly city in Palestine.[12]

	24-03-2004 23:27									#32
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"The family of the boy, Hussam Abdo, said he was mentally slow. "He doesn't know anything," his brother, Hosni"

Ah, efficient "killing two birds with one stone" by the Palies. Not only do they blow some Jews, they forward a eugenics program by using a retarded child as the weapon. A fine example of synergistic operations.

	24-03-2004 23:39									#33
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quote: Not only do they blow some Jews

	25-03-2004 00:01									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus and you'd be all to happy to fight any Palestinian boy that comes to close to your troops. Regardless of whether they are carrying bombs, or stones.

IMI can manufacture ammo a lot faster than the Palestinians can manufacture boys. If the IDF didn't show a lot of restraint on a regular basis, there'd be a wall of corpses and a river of blood.

	25-03-2004 00:23									#35
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That's the sickest part - the kid was "slow." The whole thing is sick, of course, but that really got me. Ugh.

Re: the semantics debate... war crime maybe, not terrorism. Military target.

****ing awful either way, though.

-Arrian

	25-03-2004 00:29									#36
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nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

	25-03-2004 00:29									#37
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader I suspect that those who promoted the Children's Crusade could quote a whole bunch of Christian doctrine Ben. I rather imagine that their doing so explains why all the kids set out and why their parents went along with it. Much as in this case. From some of your posts it is my impression you have a good grasp of core Christian values. What practice could such a Christian recommend to the principals in relation to what has been going on in the middle east?

Passive resistance by the Palestinians.

ACK!

	25-03-2004 00:31									#38
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Oh and anytime you send a kid to blow himself up, it's to produce terror, not to destroy military objects.

That's just a bonus.

ACK!

	25-03-2004 00:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis i comdemn this allright the guy who sent this kid on his 'mission' should have his ass handed to him... but i do also condemn the retaliation actions of the idf because they cause civilian casualties

How DARE Israel defend itself from deliberate attacks on its innocent civilians because they may accidentally cause some other innocent civilians to die!

	25-03-2004 00:36									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Oh and anytime you send a kid to blow himself up, it's to produce terror, not to destroy military objects. That's just a bonus. ACK!

Good point.

-Arrian

	25-03-2004 00:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa As long as ppl go on in an eye-for-an-eye fashion down there, we'll probably see even more stupidity comming. Personally I only shake my head. I mean what would a father do if his 2 kids quarrel about something. "If you cant agree then neither of you should have it". At least I would handle it that way.

Yup! Rather than defend myself from attack, I'll just sit there. Then they'll stop attacking me, of course. I mean, it's ALL MY FAULT, isn't it?

	25-03-2004 00:41									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX nuke them from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

I have moments where I too think of that line from Aliens.

Remember the response?

"This is a multi-million dollar facility!"

Hmm. Change million to billion...



-Arrian

	25-03-2004 00:47									#43
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Anyone ever noticed the absolutely terrible reasoning used by the "let's kill 'em all" types here? Plus emotional answers.

	25-03-2004 00:51									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Yup! Rather than defend myself from attack, I'll just sit there. Then they'll stop attacking me, of course. I mean, it's ALL MY FAULT, isn't it?

It's still the only way to win. If they don't stop attacking they become the clear-cut bad guy.

How do you think Gandhi did it?

How do you think Martin Luther King Jr. did it?

Passive resistance is slow, but it does work.

And it's still faster than endless violence.

ACK!

	25-03-2004 00:58									#45
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Indeed.

I should have brought that up, but I wanted to talk about what Israelis could do.

	25-03-2004 01:02									#46
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Tuberski: Passive resistance only works against at least nominally democratic societies that have pretensions of being just. That seems to imply that it would be better used by the Palestinians rather than the Israelis.

	25-03-2004 01:14									#47
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In previous posts in the thread, I already said that, I assumed it would be implied the second time.

ACK!

	25-03-2004 01:15									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Passive resistance by the Palestinians. ACK!

See?

ACK!

	25-03-2004 01:34									#49
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Now I'm for peace, but passive resistance won't work on the part of the Israelis. It will work for the Palestinians better than terrorism.

Israel needs to do something but I don't think that involves force. The status quo sucks pretty big time (and force would escalate that).

	25-03-2004 01:46									#50
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The use of child soldiers is an obvious way for the Palestinians to intensify the conflict. They're showing that they mean business, after Israel showed it meant business by assassinating the Hamas leader.

	25-03-2004 01:47									#51
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Attempting to blow up canisters of poisonous gas that would have killed many Israelis didn't show they mean business.

	25-03-2004 01:48									#52
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I think both sides need to be locked in a rubber room with several kilos of weed, 400 boxes of condoms and a couple of bottles of baby oil.

	25-03-2004 02:06									#53
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Passive resistance only works when an oppressed majority is confronting an oppressive minority. Within the actual borders of Israel, the population is over 75% Jews. Applying passive resistance in the occupied territories alone would no doubt produce a "who cares" attitude in Israel, thus leading nowhere.

My solution: put UN forces on the ground to enforce the pre-1967 war borders. No compromises.

	25-03-2004 02:07									#54
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Or we could go with Whaleboy's solution.

	25-03-2004 02:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Passive resistance only works when an oppressed majority is confronting an oppressive minority.

Yer forgetting the civil rights movement.

	25-03-2004 04:04									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Yup! Rather than defend myself from attack, I'll just sit there. Then they'll stop attacking me, of course. I mean, it's ALL MY FAULT, isn't it?

You got that right, Skywalker....

	25-03-2004 05:18									#57
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I think we're well beyond the stage where passive resistance by either side would be effective. I very sincerely doubt anything short of the eradication of one side or physical separation would settle the issue.

	25-03-2004 06:20									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Anyone ever noticed the absolutely terrible reasoning used by the "let's kill 'em all" types here? Plus emotional answers.

Who said "let's kill 'em all"? I don't see ANYONE advocating genocide against the Palestinians...

Unless you're regarding those here who are pro-Palestine

	25-03-2004 06:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski It's still the only way to win. If they don't stop attacking they become the clear-cut bad guy.

HOW?!

They bomb innocent civilians, strap bombs onto CHILDREN and use the children as living weapons, but if Israel attacks with conventional military force and tries NOT to kill innocent civilians, they lose the high moral grounds? WTF?

	25-03-2004 06:22									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Now I'm for peace, but passive resistance won't work on the part of the Israelis. It will work for the Palestinians better than terrorism. Israel needs to do something but I don't think that involves force. The status quo sucks pretty big time (and force would escalate that).

How are you going to stop them WITHOUT force? Force can only be met with force - unless you think you can negotiate with a missile.