25-03-2004 08:45									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich How DARE Israel defend itself from deliberate attacks on its innocent civilians because they may accidentally cause some other innocent civilians to die!

Shooting missiles into crowds. Tearing down refugee camps. Continuously occupying other people's territory. That ought to show them who's the boss.

	25-03-2004 08:50									#92
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quote: Shooting missiles into crowds.

To hit legitimate targets which deliberately hide behind said crowds...

... compared with a bomb detonated in a resteraunt for the sole purpose of killing civilians.

quote: Tearing down refugee camps.

Turning refugees into living weapons.

quote: Continuously occupying other people's territory.

Deliberately killing civilians in the occupier's territory.

	25-03-2004 08:51									#93
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UR:

violence, in Israel's (and America's) case is creating more terrorism than it's stopping...

would non-violence work? well the Islamic world didn't hate America when it DIDN'T have military bases there... American hatred started in 1948 with the creation of Israel... but really became overwhelming after the Gulf War with the presence of military in the Gulf region.

	25-03-2004 08:52									#94
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Do you really think things would have been better for America if Israel didn't exist?

Israel is an excuse.

	25-03-2004 08:56									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Do you really think things would have been better for America if Israel didn't exist? Israel is an excuse.

If you believe this, then you don't know jackshit about history...

	25-03-2004 09:07									#97
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it's really quite sad... the state of education in America...

Not only do most American kids have a terrible understanding of history... they are terribly ignorant of other cultures.

Let me spell it out for you skywalker... hopefully you may learn something:

Islamic hatred of America has 2 main causes... and these are in order of significance.

1. Presence of American troops in the region.
2. Unwavering support of Israel.

Islamic terrorists don't just hate America just because they have nothing better to do. Are you so stupid to believe that they just hate us for no reason? I sure hope not. If we didn't have troops in the region, and if we tried to mediate the mideast conflict... terrorists wouldn't have us in their sites.

You should read the Art of War, boy. Learn to understand your enemy. They hate us for very distinct reasons. And it isn't a question of non-coexistence. Islam and the West can exist peacefully.

But ignorant, extremist hawks on both sides make peace very improbable.

	25-03-2004 09:12									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Sava it's really quite sad... the state of education in America...

I'd love to give you a tour of my school

quote: Not only do most American kids have a terrible understanding of history... they are terribly ignorant of other cultures.

And you, magically, have this huge knowledge of them?

Let me spell it out for you skywalker... hopefully you may learn something:

quote: Islamic hatred of America has 2 main causes... and these are in order of significance. 1. Presence of American troops in the region. 2. Unwavering support of Israel. Islamic terrorists don't just hate America just because they have nothing better to do. Are you so stupid to believe that they just hate us for no reason? I sure hope not. If we didn't have troops in the region, and if we tried to mediate the mideast conflict... terrorists wouldn't have us in their sites.

They hate us because it is politically expedient in the extreme to hate us (individually they may hate us for whatever reason they damn well please - the important fact is that their political system selects for people who hate us). The reason is because they can portray the West as decadent, infidel, corrupt, etc. Israel is just a bonus.

quote: You should read the Art of War, boy. Learn to understand your enemy. They hate us for very distinct reasons. And it isn't a question of non-coexistence. Islam and the West can exist peacefully.

The West and Islam as practiced by terrorists cannot.

quote: But ignorant, extremist hawks on both sides make peace very improbable.

The other side is, by definition, ignorant, extremist hawks.

That's why negotiating doesn't work.

	25-03-2004 09:29									#99
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I'm sorry, I cannot discuss this subject with you any more. Your level of understanding of Islam and the late 20th Century is obviously (by reading your posts) very small.

This is not meant as an insult skywalker. It's like trying to discuss baseball strategy with a Buddhist monk. You just lack the understanding.

Maybe we can talk about this after you go through a few years of college (if you don't party too hard ).

	25-03-2004 09:30									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich

Seeing that you keep putting the cart in front of the horse, Sava is right.

	25-03-2004 09:30									#101
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*sigh*

	25-03-2004 09:32									#102
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exactly

	25-03-2004 09:34									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich They hate us because it is politically expedient in the extreme to hate us (individually they may hate us for whatever reason they damn well please - the important fact is that their political system selects for people who hate us). The reason is because they can portray the West as decadent, infidel, corrupt, etc. Israel is just a bonus.

So, you have solid evidence that Muslims had been hating the US before the creation of Israel and subsequent support of the country regardless of its actions?

	25-03-2004 09:34									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Sava If you believe this, then you don't know jackshit about history...

If Israel didn't exist, the arab countries would be fighting amoung themselves (even more than they do now), and we would still be hated due to a combination of the alliances/balance of powers that formed in the middle east out of the cold war and our reliance on oil from the region, the lack of democratic reforms and Wahhabism/fundamentalist islam. Don't kid yourself.

	25-03-2004 09:37									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich *sigh*

What do you think is the root cause of Palestinians attacks, or, in their words, Intifada?

	25-03-2004 09:38									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Edan If Israel didn't exist, the arab countries would be fighting amoung themselves (even more than they do now), and we would still be hated due to a combination of the alliances/balance of powers that formed in the middle east out of the cold war and our reliance on oil from the region, the lack of democratic reforms and Wahhabism. Don't kid yourself.

So this is just some sort of speculation, then.

	25-03-2004 09:39									#107
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As opposed to saying we wouldn't be hated without Israel?

	25-03-2004 09:44									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Sava violence, in Israel's (and America's) case is creating more terrorism than it's stopping...

I dunno about that. Israel's casualties from terrorism have dropped in half in 2003 compared to 2002. That seems to be going in the right direction.

(Though I don't think violence on it's own is the right solution - just as I don't think diplomacy on it's own is the right solution either.)

	25-03-2004 09:48									#109
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skywalker... here's a reading list:

The New Jackals Simon Reeve (Northeastern Univ Press) 1999 paperback
The Myth of Homeland Security Marcus Ranum (Wiley) 2003
The Sacred Age of Terrorism Benjamin & Simon (Random H) 2002 paperback
The Crisis of Islam B. Lewis (Random H) 2003
Inside al Qaeda R. Gunaratna (Berkley) 2002 paperback
GERMS J. Miller et al (Simon & Shuster) 2001
America's Role in Nation Building J. Dobbins et al (RAND) 2003 paperback
Emergency Responders: Drastically Underfunded, Dangerously Unprepared
W. Rudman et al CFR 2003
The Generals War Gordon & Trainer Little Brown 1995
Terrorist Financing Wechsler & Wolosky CFR 2003
Dirty Dealing: Money Laundering, International Crime, and Terrorism P. Lilley Kogan Page Press 2003
Masterminds of Terror Fouda & Fielding Arcade 2003
American Jihad S. Emerson Simon and Shuster 2002
America Unbound Daalder & Lindsay Brookings 2003
The Mission D. Priest Norton 2003

I've read every one of these. I'm basing my opinions on the information I've read. Perhaps this will enlighten you.

I recommend these to the rest of 'Poly.

	25-03-2004 10:00									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Sava uhmmm no... the world would stop Israel cold!

How? By debating and then condemning Israel in the UN?

"The world" can't summon up a collective ball to do more than whine.

	25-03-2004 10:17									#111
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quote: 1. Presence of American troops in the region. 2. Unwavering support of Israel.

I don't mean to offend, but I think that's an extraordinarily shallow evaluation of the situation. If the mere presence of our troops and/or the mere existance of Israel is enough to incite the Arab world to hatred against us, I don't think it would be prudent to assume that the lack of either of these elements would necessarily mean a better relationship.

	25-03-2004 11:42									#112
	Sava and Urban. logical pairing, at least Get a bigger avatar today!

Ever been to Tibet, UR?

	25-03-2004 11:44									#113
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as for the topic; that's just beyond evil. It's simply so unbelievably f*ing sad. I had to fight back tears seeing those pictures - what an absolute garbage act by humanity

	26-03-2004 01:11									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Yup! Rather than defend myself from attack, I'll just sit there. Then they'll stop attacking me, of course. I mean, it's ALL MY FAULT, isn't it?

Sorry this conflict has gone way too long and is way to fvcked up now that I would call it anybody's fault.

I just see that the only fault left is that of Israeli and Palestinian leaders because they are obviously completely unable to solve the conflict. In fact it has only gotten worse. They need to be replaced and quickly before they cause more damage with their braindead policies of eye for an eye.

I just saw on the news that china attempted to occupy some japanese islands and they were arrested and there was japanese-flag-burning and protest in china. tststs
It seems people have forgotten the cruelties of war, or they dont listen to the signals.
Turn back before its too late and say good bye to hatred and terror. It will only lead you to the dark side anyway ;-)

	26-03-2004 02:02									#115
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Blowing up children accidentally by Israeli soldiers while trying to kill potential terrorists or advocates of anti-Israeli policies is unfortunate but ok.

I think all the Imams preaching Death to Israel and all the Rabbis preaching Death to Palistine should be shot by their own followers.

Or maybe to even things out the EU or China or someone should give the Palestinian Government the type of weapons Israel uses to take out Palestinian threats. It would be the humanitarian thing to do.

Imagine, Arafat could send a couple of missiles to target anti Palestinian Jewish clerics as they leave for morning prayers, killing only them (if the missiles hit the right targets). No more child-bombs ! No more random killings !

Why shouldn't both sides be given the means to target who they really want to kill ?

	26-03-2004 02:27									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Why shouldn't both sides be given the means to target who they really want to kill ?

Eh? We struggled for decades to get our quality edge. Why should the Pals get stuff the easy way?

	26-03-2004 04:02									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Shooting missiles into crowds. Tearing down refugee camps. Continuously occupying other people's territory. That ought to show them who's the boss.

civilian crowds = human shields/hostages by terrorists themselves

refugee camps = where cowardly terrorists hide

other people's territory = again, where terrorists have their bases

	27-03-2004 01:52									#118
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun civilian crowds = human shields/hostages by terrorists themselves refugee camps = where cowardly terrorists hide other people's territory = again, where terrorists have their bases

however it should read

other people's territory = part of the Nation of Israel

I think the zionists officially claim an area running from Korea to the Atlantic Oceon