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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
How are you going to stop them WITHOUT force? |
It's like being stuck inside an ever accelerating centrifuge, and you only have two options 1. Try and jump out before it gets too fast or 2. wait for it to come crashing to a halt.
Last edited by General Ludd on 25-03-2004 at 07:25
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by East Street Trader
I suspect that those who promoted the Children's Crusade could quote a whole bunch of Christian doctrine Ben.
I rather imagine that their doing so explains why all the kids set out and why their parents went along with it.
Much as in this case.
From some of your posts it is my impression you have a good grasp of core Christian values. What practice could such a Christian recommend to the principals in relation to what has been going on in the middle east? |
IIRC the Children's Crusade was actually started by a child, who was responding to a vision, both biblical passage. Remember that in those day the bible was considered to be too good for common people, so it was illegal to translate it into the native languages of the people.
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Stuie
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Have a beer!
Sep 2001
time: 00:34
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Oh, and regarding the so-called Children's Crusade, always trust in History House:
http://www.historyhouse.com/in_hist...ldrens_crusade/
quote:
Great story. Too bad it didn't really happen. To understand why we don't think so, we're going to have to give a little lesson on medieval history and why it's so hard to do. We think we can summarize the problems in a few brief points:
1.It's really damn old. Stuff got destroyed or lost. Literacy was not common in the thirteenth century either, so accounts are rare.
2. People were gullible. Recall that these folks were still four hundred years from Isaac Newton and three quarters of a millenium from antibiotics.
3. Paucity of material can be mighty tempting to speculate about and, well, it's easy to make stuff up to embellish a scarce account.
4. The accounts were copied frequently. This means it was easy to "modify" them.
So if local chronicles are so unreliable, how do we decide what really happened? The ones written soon after the event were tiny little snippets. There are three contemporary accounts of the French movement, and these pretty much say a large group of vagabonds were roaming the countryside. Whole narratives of what actually went down didn't show up until at least fifty years later, time enough for imaginations to get active. The account by Alberic of Troisfontaines, by far the most complete, was actually written by two guys over the span of sixty years, starting in 1232 and ending in 1295. The work covers all kinds of things; lots of them have nothing to do with this story. Was the Children's Crusade part written by the first guy or the second? Was it written soon after or years later? Nobody really knows.
What does seem to be true is that there was a large group of folks in France wandering the countryside the summer of 1212, possibly with banners and such so as to appear as a Crusade. But none of the contemporary chroniclers wanted to call it one, so maybe it wasn't. Alberic called it one, but should we believe him? Historian D.C. Munro noted no chroniclers in northern France say anything about an expedition headed towards Marseilles, and none south of the Loire saw anybody at all. Could it be that 30,000 people wandered around down there unnoticed? Was it really a crusade? Did they actually make it to Marseilles? As nobody seems to have seen them in Marseilles until Alberic got around to writing about it decades later, we don't think so. |
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25-03-2004 06:29
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