26-03-2004 23:06									#151
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Well, since you said "please"... quote: I think it is an arrogant statement because Bush has never given us concrete proof that WMD existed in Iraq. He took for granted the British brief that stated WMD were in Iraq , which has since been discredited, along with vague CIA intelligence reports on Iraq, and ran with the Iraqi War before fully checking the situation out. Why? Because he had a personal agenda with Iraq that he needed to address. As someone pointed out earlier, Saddam tried to kill his father. And, no wartime president has ever failed to get reelected. The arrogant statement this morning says to the world, "I got away with my private war at your expense, and there is nothing you can do about it".

The first thing I can think of:

It's pretty arrogant to say he started this war because Saddam tried to kill his father, without concrete proof.

While it may be true, there is as much proof as there is in my personal theory:

He attacked Iraq because the name is grammatically incorrect. Q at the end of a sentence?

ATTACK!!!!

ACK!

	26-03-2004 23:48									#152
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quote: I'm glad all you 'hawks' are still so proud

Yes, I'm proud. I'm not proud of Bush, though.

And I thought the joke was funny. So nyah!

	26-03-2004 23:49									#153
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Tuber,

Your theory blows. It obvious that attack rhymes with Iraq, hence the reason.

	26-03-2004 23:54									#154
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I believe that I already responded to that.

That article link you posted was a Dec 2002 assesment of what we did and didnot know about the Iraqi weapons program. It does not prove the existence of WMD in Iraq, which is what you are arguing, I believe. This article was from a point in time where were demanding more information from Iraq. Shortly after this was published, Bush went with war ahead on the basis of sketchy CIA intelligence and the discredited British dossier on Iraq and WITHOUT concrete proof.

	27-03-2004 00:06									#155
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No, I'm giving you the info the admin was going off of straight from the UN itself. You're free to argue that even if that info had been borne out the war would have been unjustified but to argue that the Admin had no reasonable basis for its claims is lieing.

	27-03-2004 00:07									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai And that's the real problem. If a guy tells a lame joke then he shouldn't be a leader.

Then why are there not a ton of threads about removing Silvio Berlusconi? Personally I think you guys should lighten up and relax. The joke wasn't lame either, it was quite funny.

	27-03-2004 00:07									#157
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski The first thing I can think of: It's pretty arrogant to say he started this war because Saddam tried to kill his father, without concrete proof.

Washington Post 9/26/02:

"at a fundraising dinner in Houston, Bush made perhaps his most personal reference to the Iraqi plot to assassinate his father in 1993, shortly after George H.W. Bush left the presidency. "There's no doubt his hatred is mainly directed at us," the president said of Hussein. "There's no doubt he can't stand us. After all, this is a guy that tried to kill my dad at one time."



Obviously this was a personal issue for Dubya... An issue settled at the expense of American lives.

He sounds like he's acting in a cheap martial arts film with that quote.

	27-03-2004 00:10									#158
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Washington Post 9/26/02: "at a fundraising dinner in Houston, Bush made perhaps his most personal reference to the Iraqi plot to assassinate his father in 1993, shortly after George H.W. Bush left the presidency. "There's no doubt his hatred is mainly directed at us," the president said of Hussein. "There's no doubt he can't stand us. After all, this is a guy that tried to kill my dad at one time." Obviously this was a personal issue for Dubya... An issue settled at the expense of American lives.

Oh shut up. What is wrong with taking out a man who tried to kill a US president at one point? It isn't a personal issue as it effects all Americans. It is the president afterall. If it was Clinton... Saddam tried to kill you'd be up all in arms. The expense of American lifes? Here we go again with the liberal profiteering of the lives of soldiers.

	27-03-2004 00:10									#159
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Washington Post 9/26/02: "at a fundraising dinner in Houston, Bush made perhaps his most personal reference to the Iraqi plot to assassinate his father in 1993, shortly after George H.W. Bush left the presidency. "There's no doubt his hatred is mainly directed at us," the president said of Hussein. "There's no doubt he can't stand us. After all, this is a guy that tried to kill my dad at one time." Obviously this was a personal issue for Dubya... An issue settled at the expense of American lives.

This constitutes proof????

	27-03-2004 00:14									#160
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No, I'm giving you the info the admin was going off of straight from the UN itself. You're free to argue that even if that info had been borne out the war would have been unjustified but to argue that the Admin had no reasonable basis for its claims is lieing.

Certainly there was reason for being suspicious of Iraq. But was there enough evidence to start a war?

	27-03-2004 00:16									#161
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If you accept the premise that the presence of WMD constitutes a threat as you seem to be argueing, yes.

	27-03-2004 00:17									#162
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Certainly there was reason for being suspicious of Iraq. But was there enough evidence to start a war?

The sheer number that Saddam killed is enough evidence to go to war.

	27-03-2004 00:29									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe This constitutes proof????

In that quote, he put the whole thing in personal terms by referring to the first Bush as "Dad" and not "a previous president" or "government official". Dubya's administration had plans to go after Iraq even before 9/11. Dubya filled up his administration with people from his Dad's administration. It seems as if he had an axe to grind.

My speculation about Bush's motives for starting the war is not the issue here. Stop trying to put up a smokecreen.

You and the other Bush zombies still have not refuted my point that he had no concrete proof of WMD, therefore no valid pretext for starting the war.

And, back to the topic, his joke about "Where are the WMD's" was meant as a slap in the face to everyone who thought they could stop him from his personal vendetta against Saddam.

	27-03-2004 00:30									#164
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc If you accept the premise that the presence of WMD constitutes a threat as you seem to be argueing, yes.

Where did you get this evidence that WMD exists in Iraq? The govt would like to know about it.

	27-03-2004 00:38									#165
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I suggest improving your reading skills.

	27-03-2004 00:41									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The sheer number that Saddam killed is enough evidence to go to war.

Well, then we've got a lot of other countries to start invading, including some of the lesser-known members of the Coalition of the Willing.

A prominent member of this administration, who still serves in the administration, admitted shortly after the war that human rights violations alone weren't enough reason to invade, "not on the level we did, anyway" (paraphrasing) -- and that was LONG before we were approaching 600 American casualties.

	27-03-2004 00:46									#167
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There were many objectives for the invasion of Iraq.

The primary stated reason was failure to compy with a number of UN resolutions. The latest was UN 1441. THe previous two had similar language. In that resolution Iraq was required to give detailed accounting of all WMD including ones known to exist from earlier inspections. The fact that Iraq could not provide for this accounting leaves only one possible outcome. The failed to comply as such were in breach.

The question then comes is to what the UN should have done. That is immaterial as well because the provisions of the resolution allowed for any member nation involved inthe previous Desert Storm action to act. Nothing illegal about it.


Now as for my pro--Bush stance. Not a chance, although I do love taking pot shots at all you Bush haters (although I find it very unlikely I'll vote for Kerry). Me I'm undecided.


As for proof of it being a personal vendetta, surely you can come up with something more substantive than that.


As for the joke, Lighten up Francis.

	27-03-2004 00:52									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe That is immaterial as well because the provisions of the resolution allowed for any member nation involved inthe previous Desert Storm action to act.

That's something I haven't heard -- could you cite a source for it?

	27-03-2004 00:58									#169
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quote: This constitutes proof????

I agree with that statement. Toooo funny!

	27-03-2004 01:11									#170
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From UN Resolution 867

"Decides the false statements or omissions in the declaration submitted by Iraq to the Council and failure by Iraq at any time to comply and cooperate fully in accordance with the provisions laid out in this resolution, shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations, and that such breach authorizes member states to use all necessary means to restore international peace and security in the area. "


From UN resoltuon 687

"32. Requires Iraq to inform the Security Council that it will not commit or support any act of international terrorism or allow any organization directed towards commission of such acts to operate within its territory and to condemn unequivocally and renounce all acts, methods and practices of terrorism;

I

33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990);

34. Decides to remain seized of the matter and to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area. "

From Un 1441

"Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,"


"4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;"

"11. Directs the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;"


You willnote in all the above reolution it refers to a continual state of ceasefire until such time as Iraq complied with resolutions which they never did. Hence all resolutions allow for member states involved in orginal Iraq war to resume hostilities.

Most explicitly spelled out in 687 and 867.

	27-03-2004 02:02									#171
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But I think it would be up to the United Nations to declare that Iraq had not complied with the resolutions, and inspections to determine compliance were still ongoing when the Coalition decided to go to war and ordered the inspectors out.

	27-03-2004 02:05									#172
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In every resolution they spelled out he was still within material breach including UN1441 after the 30 day period transpired.

The breach of contract meant of course that the other member nations were also not required to uphold their end of the contract i.e. ceasefire.

	27-03-2004 02:22									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Jon Stewart for president!

	27-03-2004 02:41									#174
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Boris, clearly you are being pwnd by Drake and myself. Give it up.

	27-03-2004 09:32									#175
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm almost willing to bet money that the useless bag of crap won't do anything.

Apparently I would have won money.

	27-03-2004 10:52									#176
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 In that quote, he put the whole thing in personal terms by referring to the first Bush as "Dad" and not "a previous president" or "government official". Dubya's administration had plans to go after Iraq even before 9/11. Dubya filled up his administration with people from his Dad's administration. It seems as if he had an axe to grind. My speculation about Bush's motives for starting the war is not the issue here. Stop trying to put up a smokecreen. You and the other Bush zombies still have not refuted my point that he had no concrete proof of WMD, therefore no valid pretext for starting the war. And, back to the topic, his joke about "Where are the WMD's" was meant as a slap in the face to everyone who thought they could stop him from his personal vendetta against Saddam.

Well, when I refer to my father I don't call him a "retired civil service worker".

I'm not a Bush zombie, I'm a person that points out grave oversights in arguments.

ACK!

	27-03-2004 13:35									#177
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Kind of funny how all of you who think this is a grave slap in the face to all the hard working soldiers are the ones sitting at your computer in your comfy homes getting fat on pizza, while all of use military types who just got slapped in the face give not a damn about the none issue and got a laugh out of it.

to Bush.

One of the greatest personel traits is to not take yourself too seriously, something most here need to learn.

	27-03-2004 20:04									#178
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'm almost willing to bet money that the useless bag of crap won't do anything.

Wrong again, like usual. 24 hours for you for personal attacks.

Oops.

	27-03-2004 20:05									#179
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun

Misquoting is a big no-no. Next time will be vacation for you.

	27-03-2004 22:33									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Misquoting is a big no-no. Next time will be vacation for you.

** rubs his sore ass from being paddled **


Fine -- no more, but everyone knew the real one from the one I created anyway.