26-03-2004 11:36									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The problem is that if you agree that Israel can use military means, the Palestinians obviously can. This means "no civilians spared".

Since when did Hamas spare civilians?

	26-03-2004 11:36									#32
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Correct that, when the hell did Hamas not go after civilians?

	26-03-2004 11:37									#33
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Never. That was my point: Israel doesn't, and the Hamas certainly doesn't.

	26-03-2004 11:55									#34
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That is a curious twist of facts, considering Hamas targets nothing but civies, and the IDF takes some measures to avoid the same.

How many did the IDF get with their latest, 'anti-terrorist bus bomb'? One or two terrorists harpooned riding in a sedan? How many IDF generals did Hamas get with their last 10 homicide bombs on public transit in Haifa?

	26-03-2004 11:59									#35
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quote: Are you seriously asking that we, during war time, put every combatant on trial before conducting military operations?!

This argument is funny considering Yassin WAS in an Israeli prison and Israel traded him for some soliders. If he was SOOO much of a threat, why let him go?

	26-03-2004 12:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Winston It's good to know at least the US doesn't see every action by Israel out of context.

Exactly.
I mean this veto was just so shocking

	26-03-2004 12:07									#37
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheikh_Ahmed_Yassin

quote: In 1997 Yassin was released from Israeli prison as part of an arrangement with Jordan following a failed assassination attempt of Khaled Mashal conducted by the Israeli Mossad in Jordan. Yassin was released by Israel in exchange for two Mossad agents who had been arrested by Jordanian authorities, on condition that he refrain from calling for suicide bombings against Israel. Following his release, Yassin reassumed his leadership of Hamas. He immediately resumed his calls for resistance to Israeli occupation using tactics including suicide bombings against both Israeli military and civilian targets. His epigram is his most famous quote: "We chose this road, and will end with martyrdom or victory". During the various stages of the "peace process" between Israel and the Palestinian Authority (PA), Yassin was repeatedly placed under house arrest by the PA. Each time Yassin was placed under house arrest he was eventually released, often after extended demonstrations by his supporters... The attack, which was part of an ongoing Israeli retaliation against Hamas-sponsored suicide bombings, followed Sheikh Yassin's taunt that Israel's response to the Ashdod suicide bombers was weak, and that Hamas would gain strength as a result.

It appears they valued their operatives.

It also appears that the guy had a big enough mouth to warrant shutting.

	26-03-2004 12:09									#38
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither That is a curious twist of facts, considering Hamas targets nothing but civies, and the IDF takes some measures to avoid the same. How many did the IDF get with their latest, 'anti-terrorist bus bomb'? One or two terrorists harpooned riding in a sedan? How many IDF generals did Hamas get with their last 10 homicide bombs on public transit in Haifa?

Oh, you need a lecture about the situation, don't you? why is it that Palestinians target civilians? because they want to, or because it's too hard to get the politicians and the soldiers, with their miserable armament? Targetting the civilians is a weapon of despair. If they had choppers and stealth fighters, do you really think they'd be wasting their time on buses?

	26-03-2004 12:19									#39
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And German soldiers were soo much harder for the French resistence? Did the the Resistance resort to blowing up French civies out of frustration?

I guess the US soldiers in Vietman were simply defenceless, that's why the VC killed so many of them?

How about them Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan! They must have been riding in buses in Kabul when the Mujahedeen got them all.

Targeting civies is a sign of weakness alright. A weak backbone and a total disregard for human life. NOTHING justifies private citizens targetting other civilians, no matter what you perceive to be your cause.

	26-03-2004 12:23									#40
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quote: Targeting civies is a sign of weakness alright. A weak backbone and a total disregard for human life.

Hmmm... you realize that the Allies targetted civilians in WW2? Was that a sign of weakness? Weak backbone and total disregard for human life?

	26-03-2004 12:25									#41
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That's debatable, and perhaps you'd like to quote the rest of the paragraph that completes the thought, or do you want to swing at straw men?

	26-03-2004 12:28									#42
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Let me put it this way, if this were WW2, and our morality was the guide, there would be no Palestinians at large in Greater Isreal. They would all be either in internment camps or have suffocated under a carpet of bombs.

That is not the case, so where do you want to go with this?

	26-03-2004 12:28									#43
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither And German soldiers were soo much harder for the French resistence? Did the the Resistance resort to blowing up French civies out of frustration?

No, they sure wouldn't have hesitated to blow some Germans, seeing how the SS massacred French villages.

Besides, there are occasional skirmishes between the Army and Palestinians. They just stand no chance against them, seeing how one Israeli military death equates about 534 Palestinians. The odds were nowhere like that in the Resistance.

quote: I guess the US soldiers in Vietman were simply defenceless, that's why the VC killed so many of them?

The did receive help from the USSR and China, didn't they? The Palestinians barely have slings and some pistols.

quote: How about them Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan! They must have been riding in buses in Kabul when the Mujahedeen got them all.

Funny, I thought the Mudjaheedeens were trained and armed by some very special friends. And I also thought that the Israelis only defended the border, and sent copters to do the raids specifically to avoid ambushes by Palestinian resistance.

quote: Targeting civies is a sign of weakness alright. A weak backbone and a total disregard for human life. NOTHING justifies private citizens targetting other civilians, no matter what you perceive to be your cause.

What's so different between targetting them directly and ignoring collateral damage? the results are the same, hatred.

Now look at what Israel is doing, and ask yourself how it is justified.

	26-03-2004 12:33									#44
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quote: The did receive help from the USSR and China, didn't they? The Palestinians barely have slings and some pistols.

Spearmen, Spearmen.

They have AKs, RPGs, guided ATGMs, sniper rifles.

	26-03-2004 12:36									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The did receive help from the USSR and China, didn't they? The Palestinians barely have slings and some pistols.

Perhaps Arafat could use some of his billion to even the terms?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arafat

quote: Personal wealth Arafat appears in the business magazine Forbes' annual list of the wealthiest "Kings, Queens and Despots". They estimate his wealth as being "at least $300 million", placing Arafat sixth on the list in 2003. [2] [3] Forbes did not indicate its source for this information. In August 2002, Israeli Military Intelligence Chief Aharon Ze'evi estimated Arafat's personal wealth to be $1.3 billion. [4] Financial irregularities The International Monetary Fund conducted an audit of the Palestinian Authority which stated that Arafat diverted $900 million in public funds to a special bank account he controlled. Other estimates range between $1 Billion and $3 Billion. Arafat's wife, Suha, is estimated to receive a stipend of $100,000 each month. According to Forbes, the new PA Finance Minister, Salam Fayyad appointed June 2002, is tasked with cleaning up PA finances, cutting off much of Arafat's cash flow. [5] [6] [7] In October 2003, French government prosecutors opened an money-laundering probe of Suha Arafat after Tracfin alerted the prosecutors to transfers of nearly $1.27 million each with some regularity from Switzerland to Mrs. Arafat's accounts in Paris. The probe was made public February 11, 2004.

Poor little rich terrorist riding the backs of desperate people.

You want the problem with peace in Palestine? It's right there.

	26-03-2004 12:45									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Spearmen, Spearmen. They have AKs, RPGs, guided ATGMs, sniper rifles.

When was the last time they used them? surely they would be more dangerous if they gave them to the 17-years old rock-throwers.

	26-03-2004 12:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Poor little rich terrorist riding the backs of desperate people. You want the problem with peace in Palestine? It's right there.

Good idea. Why don't we blame Arafat for not spending billions in military equipment and start another war?

	26-03-2004 12:52									#48
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Which is it? They are poor and can't target the military and have to target civies, or it is simply cheaper for them to ignore the military and target nothing but civies?

	26-03-2004 13:06									#49
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That's probably it, they have piles of high-tech weapons but they don't use them because they prefer to blow themselves up.

	26-03-2004 13:08									#50
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quote: When was the last time they used them? surely they would be more dangerous if they gave them to the 17-years old rock-throwers.

They use them all the time, genius. They just ****ing suck. Just last night they attempted to penetrate a settlement with RPGs and Rifles: they got pwned. My friend, who's in Gaza comes under fire daily. For example, he was in a convoy protecting settlers, and they launched an RPG. guess which vehicle they were aiming for? ( no bonus points for effort )

If they engaged in a guerilla warfare, I'd perhaps even have some sort of respect for them (Though since they are Islamist *******s, I'd still hate them ), but they aren't. They specifically target civilians to encrease the body count.

	26-03-2004 13:11									#51
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I have heard that a bomb belt costs $10,000 to produce.

	26-03-2004 13:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel They use them all the time, genius. They just ****ing suck. Just last night they attempted to penetrate a settlement with RPGs and Rifles: they got pwned. My friend, who's in Gaza comes under fire daily. For example, he was in a convoy protecting settlers, and they launched an RPG. guess which vehicle they were aiming for? ( no bonus points for effort ) If they engaged in a guerilla warfare, I'd perhaps even have some sort of respect for them (Though since they are Islamist *******s, I'd still hate them ), but they aren't. They specifically target civilians to encrease the body count.

They must suck because their weapons and training are so much better, and because they receive military aid from the US.

At least it shows that they don't necessarily target buses. And why don't you guys just leave the settlements once and for all?

	26-03-2004 13:55									#53
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quote: They must suck because their weapons and training are so much better, and because they receive military aid from the US.

That's the way it works, Charlie. If they want to have a claim that they are really cool guerilla freedom fighters, they must be them, and not target civilians. Sheesh, the lengths you go to defend suicide bombings are staggering. Noone said that their weapons and training were better. Guerillas rarely, if ever get that.

quote: At least it shows that they don't necessarily target buses. And why don't you guys just leave the settlements once and for all?

Yes, they also target homes.

Why won't we leave?
a) In the Gaza Strip, we do plan to leave ( while I personally don't agree with it, I think it would be better if we did in an agreement with the palestinians)

b) generally, why do you think it's ok to displace hundreds of thousands of people out of their homes if they're Israelis, and not if they're palestinians?

	26-03-2004 13:59									#54
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Have to agree with Azazel here. The reason I'm still strongly against Palestinian 'freedom fighters' is because they target civilians only. When they take up the fight to the soldiers, we'll see what happens then and then MAYBE we can think about if they can be called freedom fighters, before that there is no chance in hell.

Azazel, we have trained guerillas who are armed to the teeth, I think that's not very uncommon in many other countries as well?

	26-03-2004 14:10									#55
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With regards to the OP, I hardly think it's newsworthy at all.

If the US did not veto or even support such a resolution, that would be very newsworthy.

	26-03-2004 14:52									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The problem is that if you agree that Israel can use military means, the Palestinians obviously can. This means "no civilians spared".

You sir, need an education about what constitutes a legal military target and what is specifically outlawed by the laws of war.

	26-03-2004 14:53									#57
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OMFGG PWNDD!!!!!!111111


Yes, that is proper use of the English language.

	26-03-2004 15:19									#58
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Hahahahahahahahah... this is like a slap in the face of those who said all Palestinians would get enraged.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...el_palestinians

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Sixty prominent Palestinians urged their people Thursday not to retaliate for Israel's killing of the Hamas founder, but instead to transform the 3 1/2-year-old violent uprising into a peaceful protest for statehood.

	26-03-2004 16:37									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Winston But the United Nations is still a joke when it comes to political matters. A bad joke.

Time to put her to sleep.

	26-03-2004 17:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Are you seriously asking that we, during war time, put every combatant on trial before conducting military operations?! This argument is funny considering Yassin WAS in an Israeli prison and Israel traded him for some soliders. If he was SOOO much of a threat, why let him go?

Have you ever heard of foreign pressure before?