26-03-2004 08:52									#1
	U.S. Backs Israel in UNSC vote on Yassin Suffering from ads?

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.a...r=palestin&Cr1=

quote: Resolution condemning killing of Hamas leader defeated by US veto in Security Council UN Security Council in session 25 March 2004 – The United Nations Security Council today failed to adopt a resolution that would have condemned the assassination of Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, with the United States vetoing what it called a one-sided text. The resolution, sponsored by Algeria and Libya, garnered 11 tallies in favour, with the United States casting the sole vote against it. Germany, Romania and the United Kingdom abstained. Speaking before the vote, Ambassador John D. Negroponte of the United States explained that his country opposed the resolution because it was "silent about the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas," did not reflect the realities of the conflict in the Middle East and "because it will not further the goals of peace and security in the region." Ambassador Negroponte said the United States was "deeply troubled" by the killing of Sheikh Yassin. "Israel's action has escalated tensions in Gaza and the region, and could set back our efforts to resume progress towards peace," he said. But he added that events must be considered in their context and the Council "does nothing to contribute to a peaceful settlement when it condemns one party's actions and turns a blind eye to everything else occurring in the region." Following the vote, Algeria's Ambassador, Abdallah Baali, said the result was as if the Security Council concluded that it had no say in the terrible tragedy unfolding in that part of the world. "By not condemning the extrajudicial killing of Sheikh Yassin, the Security Council is not sending the right message to the world which has unanimously condemned this crime," he said. Ambassador Baali added that the Council was not sending the right message to those who sincerely believed that it was the custodian of international law. "But it is certainly sending the wrong message to Israel, whose representative boasted two days ago in this very chamber about the crime and vowed to continue the unlawful policy of extrajudicial killings," he said. If adopted, the text would have condemned "the most recent extrajudicial execution committed by Israel, the occupying Power," that killed Sheikh Ahmed Yassin along with six other Palestinians outside a mosque Monday in Gaza City, and called for a complete end to such killings. The draft expressed the Council's grave concern at the continued deterioration of the situation on the ground in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem, as a result of the escalation of violence and attacks, and condemned all terrorist attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction. The draft also called on all sides to immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of acts of violence, including all acts of terrorism, provocation, incitement and destruction. In a related provision, the Council would have called for the end to all illegal measures and practices and for respect for and adherence to international humanitarian law. Both parties would have been called on to fulfil their obligations under the Road Map and to work with the Quartet to implement it, in order to achieve the vision of the two States living side-by-side in peace and security. The Road Map is a plan sponsored by the UN, European Union, Russian Federation and United States that calls for a series of parallel and reciprocal steps leading to two States living side by side in peace by 2005.

Thoughts?

	26-03-2004 08:54									#2
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The death of a terrorist is not something to condemn.

	26-03-2004 09:00									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The death of a terrorist is not something to condemn.

I totally agree.

But can we have government sponsored execution without due process? Why not a trial? He was in Gaza...they could have gone and got him...Or would that have caused civilian casualties? What is the right way to handle these situations?

	26-03-2004 09:09									#4
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My wife didn;t believe me when I predicted this a few days ago

	26-03-2004 09:19									#5
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How is the wife, comrade?

to US

	26-03-2004 09:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I totally agree. But can we have government sponsored execution without due process? Why not a trial? He was in Gaza...they could have gone and got him...Or would that have caused civilian casualties? What is the right way to handle these situations?

If we're the "good guys" then we should put suspected terrorists on trial. If they are the "bad guys" then they will be found guilty.

Actions like the one Israel took to assassinate Yassin are the same as those taken by the "terrorists." Before someone trys to tell me different, what do you think the response would be to firing rockets at George Bush from a helicopter gunship? Terrorism? I think so.

	26-03-2004 09:26									#7
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO But can we have government sponsored execution without due process? Why not a trial? He was in Gaza...they could have gone and got him...Or would that have caused civilian casualties? What is the right way to handle these situations?

According to the palestinians, and the people that defend them, it's a war.

In war there is no due process, no trial. Assassination of leaders is acceptable.

So:

1.The Palestinians have to accept it, while still being angry.

2. Don't accept it, say that it was criminal, thus saying they aren't at war, incriminating themselves.

Can't have it both ways.

ACK!

	26-03-2004 09:33									#8
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I totally agree. But can we have government sponsored execution without due process? Why not a trial? He was in Gaza...they could have gone and got him...Or would that have caused civilian casualties? What is the right way to handle these situations?

I think it was more of an issue of self-defense, then government sponsored execution. Could of gone in and get him? That would of been a blood bath too I would think.

	26-03-2004 09:59									#9
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The US seems to be the only clear headed country on the Security Council reguarding this issue. Terrorists need to be brought down by any means necissary.

	26-03-2004 10:01									#10
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quote: But can we have government sponsored execution without due process?

Are you seriously asking that we, during war time, put every combatant on trial before conducting military operations?!

	26-03-2004 10:02									#11
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Even when they encourage more terrorists?
Thats strange logic.

	26-03-2004 10:05									#12
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Some alternative views:

quote: Israel's Interior Minister Avraham Poraz, who voted against assassinating Yassin in the security cabinet last week, warned after the attack that many Israelis could pay with their lives for the assassination. "I fear we have opened up a cycle here and that many will pay for it with their lives," Poraz told Israel Radio. "I am afraid that Hamas's motivation will increase. [Yassin] will become some sort of martyr... a national hero for them and I'm very sorry to say, this won't prevent Hamas from continuing its activities." Leader of the left-wing Yahad Party and former justice minister Yossi Beilin also criticized the assassination, asking, "How many Israelis will have to pay with their lives for this act?" He said the assassination was a "horrendous mistake that will cost Israel heavily."

Israel's Assassinations Will Only Fuel Suicide Bombings

quote: The assassination of Shiekh Admed Yassin is worse than a crime, it is an act of stupidity! This is the beginning of a new chapter of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It moves the conflict from the level of a solvable national conflict to the level of religious conflict, which by its very nature is insoluble. The fate of the State of Israel is now in the hands of group of persons whose outlook is primitive and whose perceptions are retarded. They are incapable of understanding the mental, emotional and political dimensions of the conflict. This is a group of bankrupt political and military leaders who have failed in all their actions. They try to cover up their failures by a catastrophic escalation.

The Assassination of Sheikh Yassin

	26-03-2004 10:07									#13
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Hmm.. both sources go to counterpunch so I think you are getting one biased, wrong view there. And both are wrong. Killing a terrorist is a necessary thing to do. The man was directing murders, so this was an act of self defense.

	26-03-2004 10:08									#14
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The Israeli government has commissioned several serious studies on the effects for killing leading terrorist figures. The results? They found a very short intial period where terror attacks increased followed by a long quiet period were the rate of attacks significantly decrease.

Killing the trained leadership really does slow down terror attacks as the terrorists are forced to find and train new leaders.

The net result is actually fewer terror attacks.

	26-03-2004 10:20									#15
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The problem is that if you agree that Israel can use military means, the Palestinians obviously can. This means "no civilians spared".

	26-03-2004 10:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The problem is that if you agree that Israel can use military means, the Palestinians obviously can. This means "no civilians spared".

No the palestinians cannot as the Israelis don't direct terrorism.

Edit: Like my new avatar? I need a new face around here.

	26-03-2004 10:25									#17
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If you argue that in war no rules exist, why whine about an assassination?

	26-03-2004 10:26									#18
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This argument that killing Yassin will lead to more terrorist attacks is a fallacious one. If you are a Palestinian and you believed suicide attacks are good, this won't change your view. If you don't view suicide attacks as good, you probably don't have a high opinion of Hamas, and while you may not like assanation, it's not likely to turn you into a suicide bomber.

In any case, the point is kind of moot, as the terrorists in Palestine find no shortage of volunteers for their deadly missions. It's not as if gaining more recruits would help the jihadists any, since manpower isn't a problem for them.

	26-03-2004 10:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Edit: Like my new avatar? I need a new face around here.

I was just about to comment on it.

It suits you much better than the last one...

	26-03-2004 10:27									#20
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Errr... Giancarlo, surely you could write us an essay about how it was the Aliens and not the Israelis who strangled Palestine into becoming one of the poorest place in the world, and how shooting rockets into crowds and razing villages is not 'terrorism'?

	26-03-2004 10:27									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Edit: Like my new avatar? I need a new face around here.

Is that avatar how your face looks now post-surgery?

	26-03-2004 10:28									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi This argument that killing Yassin will lead to more terrorist attacks is a fallacious one. If you are a Palestinian and you believed suicide attacks are good, this won't change your view. If you don't view suicide attacks as good, you probably don't have a high opinion of Hamas, and while you may not like assanation, it's not likely to turn you into a suicide bomber. In any case, the point is kind of moot, as the terrorists in Palestine find no shortage of volunteers for their deadly missions. It's not as if gaining more recruits would help the jihadists any, since manpower isn't a problem for them.

There are other things than suicide bombers. It's called popular support, mentality, etc.

	26-03-2004 10:30									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Is that avatar how your face looks now post-surgery?

Just the face of reputation.

"Errr... Giancarlo, surely you could write us an essay about how it was the Aliens and not the Israelis who strangled Palestine into becoming one of the poorest place in the world, and how shooting rockets into crowds and razing villages is not 'terrorism'?"

The Palestinians did that to themselves by going along with terrorism and not stopping it. There were many peace deals on the table, even to return their country to them but they turned it down. They forced the suffering on themselves.

	26-03-2004 10:31									#24
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Yeaaaah sure.

	26-03-2004 10:33									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The total dumbasses strike again.

Most nations (i.e. everyone else) supported the resolution explicitly or implicitly because, even though some of them might not disagree in principle with the assassination of terrorists, they couldn't for the life of them see how this does anything to make the situation in the Middle East better for anyone.

The news media can't work out why Sharon did it for Christ's sake. Some of them think it might be part of a strategy of "bloody withdrawal" but are reluctant to attribute this to Sharon since it's never worked before and one would have to be a blithering idiot to believe that it would.

	26-03-2004 10:41									#26
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Israel also wants it both way. As an occupying power, which Israel is under the various Geneva conventions, they would have been justified in arresting and convicting Yassir, then executing him. As they have the power (unlike the Palestinians) the primary responsibility falls on THEM to follow the Geneva Accords. Firing a rocket into a group of civilians to "assissinate" Yassir is in total violation of the Geneva accords FOR AN OCCUPYING POWER.. As long as Israel controls the West Bank and Gaza (which they do under virtually every definition) then they violate the Geneva Conventions every time they fire a rocket into a civilian area.

This would put Israeli soldiers at risk. Israel chooses not to, and instead deliberately, with calculated forethought, chooses to put civilians, and this includes numerous children, at risk and KILLS them. Now if Israel pulls out, lets a Palestinian INDEPENDENT government come to power, and then attacks the exact same way, the actions are perfectly legal in self-defense. The risks of invading a sovereign territory giving aid and comfort to the terrorists is such that the air strike is considered acceptable under the Geneva Accords, at least as I understand them. The problem is that Israel wants all the privaleges of an occupying power, for example controlling the water resources of the West Bank, without the problems of one, for example taking losses during a properly conducted counter-insurgency operation that adheres to the Geneva convention. They are quite willing to kill children (firing Air-to-Ground missles into cars, apartment buildings, and open streets) to avoid taking losses of military personnel. Everytime they do that it recruits that many more people to the cause of the Palestinian and Moslem extremists. Stupid, and short sighted.

The Palestinian terror bombings are equally heinous. I just want to make one point. The Israeli's have killed more children in their response to the Intefada than the Palestinians have killed Israeli children. Note I am talking children, not teenagers. The extremists of both sides, who happen to be in power, are loathsome individuals who should be tried at the Hague. The US should get the out of that hellhole, until the Israeli's are willing to guarantee Palestinians equal property and resource rights in the West Bank and Gaza, and to either adhere to the Geneva Accords for an occupying power or pull out of the West Bank and Gaza totally. Also the US should not deal with the Palestinians until they have a free and uncorrupt government, something the Israelis, the Palestinian Authority, and Hamas, each for their own reasons, does everything in their power to sabotage. I repeat, the US should get out. Period. And stay out.

	26-03-2004 10:42									#27
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They had him in prison and let him out.

Look the guy was a quadraplegic who was so far gone that he didn't even notice the last time rockets hit the building he was in.

	26-03-2004 10:45									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo The Palestinians did that to themselves by going along with terrorism and not stopping it. There were many peace deals on the table, even to return their country to them but they turned it down. They forced the suffering on themselves.

So, people wake up in the morning and decide to blow themselves up with no reason? If you wouldn't, why would they?

	26-03-2004 10:51									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So, people wake up in the morning and decide to blow themselves up with no reason? If you wouldn't, why would they?

They hate Israelis. It is that simple.

	26-03-2004 11:31									#30
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on the US veto.

It's good to know at least the US doesn't see every action by Israel out of context.

But the United Nations is still a joke when it comes to political matters. A bad joke.