06-04-2004 07:31									#61
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If you are still in despotism, I like to capture the settler and get the two slaves. They will be the same about peace as any other level. You will have to hurt them a few times or wait a long time for them to want peace. The difference IMO is they will surely have a stronger power rating and hence be more inclined to stay at war. It will be hard to get others involved.

This is not a big problem when they are on another land mass as you know they will do a crappy job of invading. If you are in Republic, then it is a tougher call.

	06-04-2004 07:38									#62
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I am looking forward to the next pahse. I find that the ancient age is not too bad. You can get a wonder or two and use the GL to hang close and defend from the lame invasions on island maps.

It is worse if the AI's are isolated from you and you can't get contacts for a long time. In any event, once they break past Education and get to the tech after it, the game can start to get ugly. If no AI is in position to challenge the top AI, the game can come apart. One big KAI will roll up all the wonders and the other civs and leave you no place to grow. This is the problem, I have no answer for at this time.

	06-04-2004 08:59									#63
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It's amazing what a good REX can do. Egypt is in Republic. I'm still stuck in Despotism. Pay close attention to the Mfg. Goods stat.

Note that to pull this off, I've been running my luxury slider at 50% for a long time now. But I just traded horses to the Zulus for wines (thanks to the Great Lighthouse), letting me drop back a notch.

Egypt is way ahead of me in tech. I'm still missing Currency and Construction (not to mention Monarchy and Republic), while Egypt has started work on Sun Tsu's. Unfortunately, I'm having no luck finding other civs; I still just have my original two contacts. With the Great Lighthouse and the high cost of galleys, I've been reluctant to risk sinking, and safe routes haven't been panning out in the directions I've been searching thus far.

Attachment: bc 350 first in mfg goods.jpg
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	06-04-2004 09:07									#64
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That's why imo you need to use cash windfall from the GL to rush, rush, rush marketplaces, libraries, and courthouses as there is no tomorrow. Once Education expires, you need to have stellar infrastructure in your cities to be able to handle your own research.

If you can engage AIs in wars to prevent their trade, they will still suck in their city management as AI does not use luxury slider and will use entertainers to keep their cities in check. Since their armies are so huge, they will be reluctant to assault each others' cities directly, but they will pillage everything in sight, reducing their economic potential.

While 4 turn research is difficult to achieve (even on the standard map), 5-6 turn research after Education is doable and that is enough to keep up in the tech game, especially if AI is slowed down.

[Edit: this was in reply to Vmxa post]

Last edited by ErikM on 06-04-2004 at 09:37

	06-04-2004 09:31									#65
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310 BC, and I recently made contact with Japan. They only have half a dozen cities, and they're horribly backward in tech. I'm seriously considering helping them out since they're so close to Egypt, but I'm not ready to make that decision just yet.

I've essentially finished REXing on my home continent. There's a place or two where I might consider squeezing in additional cities, but I'm not ready to make a decision on that yet. At the moment, I'm mostly focused on trying to make my culture less of a joke.

Attachment: bc 310 rex essentially complete.jpg
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	06-04-2004 09:33									#66
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Erik it sounds solid, but not easy to do and requires the AI to have a rivial or two. If all those are not present, you got a problem.

	06-04-2004 09:48									#67
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Nathan you have done your usual great job of developing your land.

One of the things I mentioned to MS at the out set was that if you do not have a lux in proximity, you need a new map. On a land of that size, you need two luxs. It is not bad at the start to not have them as you can build workers and settlers to trim the city size, but later that is not a solution.

This is not some OCC game, where you can trade for a lux. The AI will not be helping you in that department and you will only have one or two chances to trade tech for them anyway. Not a long term solution.

If Japan was within your reach, then you could annex them. As you are starting to see a bad map is a killer. I mean by that, you are not able to gain contacts in a timely fashion.

This has happened to me before on Sid and you are unable get to Astro to get out. Some times you need Nav, if you are bounded by ocean. Once a KAI emerges the speed of research and wonders is scary. It won't them be long before all the civs see all the map.

	06-04-2004 11:42									#68
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It's now 110 BC and I just entered the medieval era. I just made contact with the Mongols and Arabia, neither of which is even close to competitive. That leaves the Celts and Hittites as the two civs I haven't met yet.

I've actually pulled ahead of Egypt in percentage of the world's population, 23 percent to 21 percent. That's not really a good lead over an AI, but at least it's a lead. So trying to compete with Egypt may not be quite completely hopeless.

I'm going to go ahead and post my current save in case others want to pick up from here. If anyone does, however, I ask that you please not post reports any farther along in the game than where I am.

One note: I've adjusted my slider to start research on Republic, since I'm tired of Despotism and have no way of knowing whether a second AI might research Republic for me in a timely manner or not. But options remain open if you would rather do something different.

Nathan

	06-04-2004 11:43									#69
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Oops. Forgot to attach the save.

Attachment: nbarclay sid 110 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).

	06-04-2004 11:45									#70
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Nathan you have done your usual great job of developing your land. One of the things I mentioned to MS at the out set was that if you do not have a lux in proximity, you need a new map. On a land of that size, you need two luxs.

The way I look at it, I'm a whole lot better off with this big a land mass and just one lux than I would be with a smaller land mass and one lux.

quote: This is not some OCC game, where you can trade for a lux. The AI will not be helping you in that department and you will only have one or two chances to trade tech for them anyway. Not a long term solution.

Given the peculiar nature of this game, I'm hoping I'll be able to do a lot better than that. I'm already trading horses to the Zulus for wines, thanks to the Great Lighthouse. I probably won't find it practical to trade for Egypt's luxuries, but I think I'll be enough bigger than the other AIs to trade for at leat most of the other luxuries on an ongoing basis if I really want to.

	06-04-2004 15:03									#71
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Nathan, you are (partially) right. I botched the first part of my rexxing, manly to the fact that I fully developed my capital before making it a 5-turns settler pump (with 2 MP, a granary, a temple, a marketplace etc.).

Then I pumped up my second city to size 6-7 (used settlers again) before using it for a palace pre-build (in my first game, with the GL). I believe I was too obsessed in not getting the GLibrary. Of course, I fully developed my second city too...

Vmxa,
I didn't understand you post about city spacing. A C-T-T-C rexxing gives you more cities, more production (dubious in the fringes) and a better coverage, I agree. But it also means a lot more settlers. I tried the two approaches and, strangely, the rexxing period was about the same. I'll post some more comments on the rest of the games until the mid of the Middle Age.

ErikM,
I agree with the using of the cash of the GL to rush everything possible, but then you have to be in Republic.
The problem I had with my game with the GL is that Egypt was so far ahead that I was second in tech (and the leader of the pack). I still had to research the Republic all by myself at 50 turns (no faster).
Imagine, Egypt was building Copernicus when I got it finally.
In fact, the GL was completely useless to me (I believe I just got Monotheism from it) and all other civs were just broke because of me selling them techs. This is why I started a second game without the GL and I got confirmation that, in this particular game, you gould be second in techs without it, at least through the Ancient Times. The difference between Nathan and me is probably that I made contact with all other civs very early (no editor, so I didn't know the map, and I lost a few curraghs, i.e. less settlers to build). Them as usual on archipelago, you just trade between groups of civs.

As for Japan, in my first game, they got wiped out by Egypt. In my second one, I gifted them 3-4 techs and managed to survive (until now).

	06-04-2004 22:11									#72
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I wish I could look at your save, but I went to 1.22 and cannot even load the 4000bc save.

	06-04-2004 22:26									#73
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MS, one of the things it is hard to know is what landings you can expect. If no one will reach you for some time and only one civ is strong, you will have the ability to fill out the land as you please.

Often you have several civs that are stronger than you or are close enough to land incursion early. If this is the case it will be harder to deal with those landings on an OCP spacing.

Those extra cities can make units, even if they are not very productive and you will need all the units you can get to tangle with any AI at this level.

My perspective is the game is not too hard, until you have to expand by taking on one of the civs. The first one is often not advanced, but after that one you will not find civs with out the same tech as you very often. Most of the addition ones I took out had already been weakened by the KAI.

If this map is large and the civs are well spaced out and isolated you can have a larger window to find them backward.

BTW can you post the biq or send it to me. I would like to see what it looks like. I presume that 122 will not affect looking at the scenario. Well hold off for a week to give nbarclay a chance to finish.

	07-04-2004 01:31									#74
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From what Mountain Sage has said, this is a normally started game, not a scenario, so there would be no .biq for it.

I'm not asking that people not post ahead of me in gemeral; just that they not do it if they're playing from my own save. Seeing information from the future from a world so closely parallel to my own would feel a lot more awkward than seeing information from the future from worlds that diverged from mine thousands of years ago.

	07-04-2004 03:51									#75
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Yeah, I was not thinking again. I knew MS did not use the editor, but forgot. So I guess I will have to wait to see some detail pix to see what the world looks like.

	07-04-2004 03:52									#76
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Hum, what about the world map number in the ini? Is that only for scenaios?

	07-04-2004 13:09									#77
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Sorry Nathan, but since I’ll be on holiday for the next 10 days, I thought to put in writing the final stages of my two games. Nothing really secret about it…, you’ll see.

Vmxa1, that’s not a scenario (you’ll see a REAL one on my next try), both games are 1.15 vanilla C3C…


My first game: GLibrary and C-T-T-C spacing:

500AD:
My rexxing is completed, we have now 40 cities. Japan is no more, its cities are now worshipping Anubis.
The GLibrary gave us Monotheism and Theology. Chivalry and Feudalism were traded. The Republic and Engineering were researched. All in all, a very dubious expenditure.
At least, we have 5’893 gold, to be spent on Libraries, Marketplaces and the such.
We are (just) in Republic.
Our military: 2 Archers, 5 Horses, 1 Knight and… 31 Workers and 3 Settlers.

Wonders:
Egypt: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, GLighthouse, Oracle (ex Japanese), Great Wall, Sun Tsu, Sistine, Magellan’s Voyage, Copernicus (in Osaka!), Leo, Bach, temple of Artemis, Knight Templar, Smith (under construction…)
Mongols: Colossus, Statue of Zeus.
Hittites: Mausoleum of Mausollos.

The top 5 cities? All Egyptian.

And they started colonizing the southern islands…

Well, a pic for the records… without giving away much…

Attachment: 500adw.jpg
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	07-04-2004 13:12									#78
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The 2nd version: no GLibrary and C-T-T-T-C spacing
320AD:
My rexxing is completed, including the islands towards the Zulus and the 1st of the southern islands. 38 cities total (islands included).
We have Feudalism and Engineering and just discovered the Republic by ourselves (at 50 turns, of course). We are just switching to it…
5’651 gold, to be spent soon.
Our military: 12 Warriors, 5 Galleys, 5 Curraghs and…33 Workers.

Wonders:
Egypt: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, Great Wall, Sun Tsu, Sistine, Magellan’s Voyage, Copernicus (in Osaka!), Leo, Bach, temple of Artemis, Knight Templar.
Mongols: Colossus, Statue of Zeus.
Hittites: GLighthouse, Mausoleum of Mausollos
Arabs: Oracle.

Well, we were just content to be the second of the pack, when one day… and we will stay in anarchy for another 8 turns…
End of the game.

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	07-04-2004 19:05									#79
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Nathan's REX's always amaze me.

MS:

quote: Egypt: Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, GLighthouse, Oracle (ex Japanese), Great Wall, Sun Tsu, Sistine, Magellan’s Voyage, Copernicus (in Osaka!), Leo, Bach, temple of Artemis, Knight Templar, Smith (under construction…)

That's a monstrous KIA you've got there.

Good luck to all who are playing: I'll be reading along with the others in the peanut gallery.

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 21:40									#80
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Mountain Sage, did you notice whether Egypt ever got thrown back from Republic into Monarchy fighting Japan in your game? It's happened in mine; Japan has three cities left at the moment, and will probably be gone completely before much longer, but at least they're presumably slowing down Egypt's research for the moment. Unfortunately, in the long term, the conquest of Japan will make Egypt stronger due to the extra territory gained.

(Initially, with the route I'd taken to discover Japan, I'd thought Japan was on a separate island. But it turned out to share a continent with Egypt, and the disparity in size between the two sharing a continent - possibly due to war chariots during Egypt's GA? - is what makes Egypt such a monster. (Not to mention, in my game, the Pyramids, the Hanging Gardens, and the Great Wall, with Sun Tsu's and Sistine on the way.)

I'm up to 150 AD now, and have just started a 5-turn transition to Republic (having spent a lot of gold researching it myself at maximum in the hope that it will pay for itself in the long term). I now have contact with all the other civs. Egypt is ahead of me in tech, the Zulus are behind me by Republic, and everyone else is lagging significantly behind. I blew some gold on embassies and determined that the Hittites and Arabs are at war; from F11, I suspect that the Hittites are likely in a golden age from it, for better or for worse.

Nathan

	07-04-2004 21:49									#81
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Wouldn't you be able to see if the Hittites were in a GA from the embassy you established? Or did you only establish one w/the Arabs?

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 21:56									#82
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By the way, unless I missed something, Mountain Sage's blockade in his first game has a couple holes in it. The Zulus could slip galleys between his galleys if they wanted to attack Maastricht, but could not get farther up or down the coast. Still, if the Zulus didn't want to land outside Maastricht and knew they couldn't get farther, I can see how the blockade could work in practice. And with land units on the tiles Zulu galleys could get to near Maastricht to prevent them from unloading, the blockade could be fully effective in spite of allowing Zulu galleys to enter Dutch territory.

	07-04-2004 22:20									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Wouldn't you be able to see if the Hittites were in a GA from the embassy you established? Or did you only establish one w/the Arabs?

I wasn't looking for it when I originally established the embassy. (Is there a way to tell other than when the embassy is first established without spending gold on an investigation?) I went back to the same turn (just a couple turns ago) and repeated the process of establishing the embassy, and their shield production is at normal rather than GA levels. Looking some more, I'm guessing that the reason I dropped from second to third in GNP is probably a combination of lack of growth in outlying areas due to staying in Despotism so long and losing some size pop rushing courthouses in cities that were totally corrupt without them.

	08-04-2004 00:28									#84
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quote: (Is there a way to tell other than when the embassy is first established without spending gold on an investigation?) I went back to the same turn (just a couple turns ago) and repeated the process of establishing the embassy, and their shield production is at normal rather than GA levels.

Nope, I did mean just looking at the shield/commerce when you first establish the embassy.

If I just missed it in one of your AARs, sorry, but have you built your FP yet? If so where, if not, where are you thinking it should go? I imagine that corruption on Sid is brutal.

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 00:51									#85
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I played this just as an practice game. With no AI (near enough to kill me), it seems identical to an emperor level game. That is probably because the only thing that forces you to change an opening strategy is the number of content citizens.

My opening sucks to be honest: No prebuild for the GL screwed up the whole game. If I continue, I'll get slaughtered. Only to settler pumps. I traded my 1200+ gold + 35gpt to the Zulus for all the first tier techs. They have all the 2nd tier as well.

I did not manage to start digging myself out of the hole' I dropped a nuke in it and jumped in as well.

Attachment: sid, call it what you want, but it's hell.jpg
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	08-04-2004 01:22									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Nope, I did mean just looking at the shield/commerce when you first establish the embassy. If I just missed it in one of your AARs, sorry, but have you built your FP yet? If so where, if not, where are you thinking it should go? I imagine that corruption on Sid is brutal.

It is very brutal in Despotism. I'll find out what it's like in Republic in a few turns.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do with my FP. Prior to C3C, the issue would have been almost a no-brainer: build the FP where I jumped my palace to and hope to move my palace with a leader when I conquer one of the AIs. But with how C3C works, centering the palace is a lot more important, and with the palace centered nicely in a civ that isn't especially big (at least not anywhere near "conquer half the world" big), it's hard to figure out a really great spot for the FP.

If anyone wants to suggest any ideas on the matter, I'd love to hear them. You should be able to see where I've jumped my palace to on one of the screenshots. Also, discussion of whether I might have been better off with some other palace location once the FP is factored in would be useful for future consideration.

Nathan

	08-04-2004 01:24									#87
	Disappearing Impi? Increase the size of your Attachments

I've had a blast playing this game. Built the GL from a SGL way back when and am now building up infrastructure while waiting for contact with a second civ.

So...the Zulu got bored and have declared war. But the strangest thing is happening. The Zulu land an Impi or two on their turn (and I see the Impi on the map), but by the time it's my turn to play, they have disappeared. Poof! Vanished!

The only explanation I can come up with is that the Zulu are way overtaxed with unit maintenance that they have to disband units and the AI chooses those the farthest away from the capital.

My questions are:

- Has anyone else experienced this?
- Does my explanation fit with your understanding of the turn order (disbands happen after moves)?
- Is there a way to exploit this under Sid?

Thanks for the game MS.

- TT

	08-04-2004 01:45									#88
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TT,
1) Yes, but not in this game
2) Yes, I think it happens after the last AI move of the turn
3) I doubt it

	08-04-2004 01:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Krill My opening sucks to be honest: No prebuild for the GL screwed up the whole game. If I continue, I'll get slaughtered. Only to settler pumps. I traded my 1200+ gold + 35gpt to the Zulus for all the first tier techs. They have all the 2nd tier as well.

Was there any reason to be in a hurry about that? One of the fundamental principles of playing archipelago maps (also applicable to other map types but most important for archipelago) is that the more civs that have a tech you've met, the cheaper the tech gets. Therefore, unless you actually need a tech right away, you're better off waiting a while until you've met more civs before you pay gold for it. Even with tech-for-tech deals, waiting until you've met more civs is often (but not always) worthwhile.

Nathan

	08-04-2004 01:51									#90
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Basicly, I could only build three units: warriors, workers, and settlers. The only techs I had were Alpha, writing, philo and Lit. The Zulus had all the first, second-Lit and CoL, and I would bet that they had at least one third tier tech.

The reason that I traded was that I needed Spearmen and archers to finally get rid of the barbs. That and I wanted to see how far ahead the Zulus were. It looked like they were researching Lit, because they wouldn't pay the same price as the turn before.
They had more gold, and I didn't add gpt into the deal, so that is not a reason.