08-04-2004 01:52									#91
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And how did you REX so fast? I can do something similar with the Maya, but with the industrious trait, the workers slow down how fast I can set up a pump.

	08-04-2004 02:10									#92
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In my report of my early game, I provided a lot of detail about my opening moves that set up my REX. If you want to, you can try following the same pattern and see what it lets you do. The main keys were four early settler/worker pumps and no units other than setters and workers for a very, very long time.

In C3C, you don't get barbs from huts if the hut pops in the process of founding a city. I took advantage of that with some huts, and left other huts alone, so I had little trouble with needing to kill barbs. My lack of military cost me a bit of trouble when my capital expanded the second time, but by then, I was far enough along that it wasn't a big deal.

	08-04-2004 02:21									#93
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Your reports were excellent in detail, It's just that when I follow what you have written, I MMM (Mis-Micro-Manage). I can see the first two settlr pumps, and the two worker pumps, So it is just be playing Silly Buggers with myself, I think.

Bravo, though. Hope you beat The Almighty Sid

	08-04-2004 05:53									#94
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TT I would be surprise if they were over taxed as the free support is huge.

Extra free support 24
Bonus for each city 8

Plus the production bonus, I would think that is not an issue. Any change they were killed? Moved back under fog?

	08-04-2004 06:07									#95
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That much! Wow; I didn't realize the support bonuses were that high. The Zulu have several dozen cities so they would have to have a whole ton of units...but since they don't have any Iron and have not yet discovered Invention, all their units are really, really cheap. So maybe...

I'll look for a save that illustrates this phenomenom. I have seen it three times now. The Zulu land an Impi on my continent (which has no fog) and then the units disappear by my turn to play.

In a similar (but explainable case), two units landed - I killed one and the other retreated to a Mountain from where it might have jumped onto a ship the next turn.

I'll keep a look out. Thanks.

- TT

	08-04-2004 06:28									#96
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It could be that max # of units limit was exceeded.
On Sid, AIs that are left to their own devices would easily have 200-400 units per civ by Middle Ages. On a large map, probably more. It does not take too many civ to get dangerously close to the limit.

	08-04-2004 06:39									#97
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay If anyone wants to suggest any ideas on the matter, I'd love to hear them. You should be able to see where I've jumped my palace to on one of the screenshots. Also, discussion of whether I might have been better off with some other palace location once the FP is factored in would be useful for future consideration.

I'm of the opinion you should build the FP towards the edge of your Palace core, towards the majority of your cities, ASAP (1.15b and later). The main thing is to get the OCN boost from it as soon as possible.

The Palace and FP both reduce distance corruption, but only the Palace figures into OCN numbering of cities. What this means is that you will have a low OCN core around the Palace, and then can reduce distance corruption with the FP in a decent area that isn't too low OCN, but further away from the Palace. Because the OCN on Sid is so low, as long as your FP is centered in a decent area you're going to be reducing distance corruption as well as can be expected for the cities which are going to 'count'.

I don't think you shoot for 2 cores anymore. Replace the dumbbell with more of an egg shape... and make sure not to be building too many cities 'outside' the egg on the Palace side that will be stealing ocn's from cities closer to the FP than the 'outside' is from the Palace.

I've played this game out to 10BC, and my FP (1 of your Arnhem) has been giving me +20-40 commerce and production since 330BC. It's also kept me from ever having to bump over 40% luxury rate except for one turn early on (no Lighthouse, so no luxury trades yet either). I really wish I had prebuilt for it, could have had it up at least 12 turns sooner, but wasn't thinking ahead.

I'm not sure there's a good move for the palace given my FP placement. Maybe if I had built the FP a little more NW, eventually a move of the Palace down near your Delft would have payed off.

	08-04-2004 06:52									#98
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quote: Originally posted by ErikM It could be that max # of units limit was exceeded. On Sid, AIs that are left to their own devices would easily have 200-400 units per civ by Middle Ages. On a large map, probably more. It does not take too many civ to get dangerously close to the limit.

Probably not the case. The new limit is 8192 IIRC. This will not be reached that early with only about 12 civs in the game. That could be an issue later though.

	08-04-2004 06:57									#99
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Anyway I don't think that would lead to unit being disband, only not completed. TT would not be able to make units either if the max had been reached.

	08-04-2004 07:04									#100
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In my game the Zulu have 19 cities... so 176 free units... It's pretty easy for a Sid AI to double or even triple that number of units. I would guess that it is support costs that are causing the units to poof. On these types of settings the AI often will cannibalize their economy with insane numbers of units.

It's part of the reason why Bamspeedy's "beyond Sid" game barely made it to the Industrial Era, even though he was pushing the 2050 AD limit.

	08-04-2004 07:06									#101
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The disappearing Impi happened to me with a Zulu archer. The first time a played the game, a Zulu archer landed and the nearest city was not protected, so I was toast. Amazingly, just like TT, the archer disappeared. I figured he could not support the archer, but that was only a guess. So this was not just a TT dream.

	08-04-2004 07:12									#102
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As for super REXing, like nbarclay, it is not that difficult. One my first game, I did a very poor job of REXing. I worried too much about protecting my cities. When I saw nbarclay's pictures, I decided to try again.

The second game, I build 4 settler pumps and kept my citizens happy by making them work. I did not micro-manage that much, but I still did much much better.

In most games, so many settler pumps may not be available. None the less, I will be using this in my latest PBEM game.

	08-04-2004 08:10									#103
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I saw the spoiler for sedentary barbs before starting, so I decided to go for a no military (or close to it) REX. Moved the Settler 1. First build was a Worker, then Granary. After that Settlers and Workers. First city was 77, Granary and then Workers until it had enough terrain improvements and borders expanded (through building coastal cities) to start on Settlers. Same deal with the 3rd, 4th, and 5th cities founded to the E along the river.

Using 5 Worker/Settler pumps, along with 10 turn Workers from every corrupt city, I was able to REX the entire continent very quickly, and probably didn't even need the blockade to beat the Zulu to any of the city sites. The blockade did allow me to Settle 3 Island cities though.

I got a bit carried away with expansion and forgot to set up the Great Library prebuild as soon as I should. Ended up finishing the GL in 775BC (Maastricht), which really shouldn't ever work. No Alphabet civs and little contact between the AI helps out a lot. FP was built in Groningen in 330BC.

Sent out about 10 Curraghs exploring early. Lost 2 of my first 3 to misclicks before even scouting out the starting continent. Found the Zulu early and 3 curraghs were able to just barely block off the crossing. 1 Zulu Galley made it to the first island, but turned back when I blocked off his 3rd move option, and the next turn the blockade was in place.

Then the suicide Curraghs/Galleys. Seafaring sure is nice, and I was able to meet all of the civs with only losing 3 more Curraghs to the sea. Even got a Settler across to the middle island, though the Hittites had built the Lighthouse and were settling it like mad.

I decided to try to 'relocate' the Japanese to that island, and gifted them the city I founded there. Then I declared war on them, and signed Egypt up in a Military Alliance. I made a pretty dumb mistake here, using Literature to make the deal, and linking in 43gpt from Egypt. Should have first made the MA by offering gpt to Egypt, then got it back in a seperate deal for Literature. As it was, Egypt made peace with Japan in about 10 turns, having taken 1 little city, and I only got about half the cash from them I should have. My attempts to relocate the Japanese have thus far failed completely, but I think it's still a good idea eventually. I don't want to see the Hittites get any bigger, and Egypt can't look much tougher even with the Japanese lands.

I've just been coasting along at 40% Lux, 60% tax, building up my empire. Have just made it into the Middle Ages, Egypt is about 3 techs ahead (they just started Sistene and have Feudalism), but I will be getting the Republic next turn. Not sure if I want to be a Republic for most of the game, Monarchy tends to be better on Sid, but will switch to it at least for a while if I don't get Monarchy before my Anarchy is up. Getting sick of Despotism and have 5106g saved up so I can rush some badly needed Courthouses in fringe areas.

Now my goal is to settle the newly discovered island(s) to the far W, and I am setting up a SOS (stack of sinking) Galleys to try to get as many Settlers over there as I can. The Hittites can safely reach the island(s), but probably will take a while to do so. AI's tend to miss those narrow sea lanes. Other plan is to build up an invasion force (Spears, Horses, Cats, and upgrade) to hit the Zulu with once all the Marketplaces and Courthouses are finished.

Catching up to everyone but the Egyptians in culture, will be passing Japan, Celts, and Arabia in per turn culture soon. Still far behind in overall culture though. First in population with 24%, and close in territory at 13%. As for demographics, I'm second to Egypt in all the important categories. They just triggered their GA. Better now than later I suppose.

Attachment: 10bc.jpg
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	08-04-2004 09:44									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson In my game the Zulu have 19 cities... so 176 free units... It's pretty easy for a Sid AI to double or even triple that number of units. I would guess that it is support costs that are causing the units to poof. On these types of settings the AI often will cannibalize their economy with insane numbers of units.

Not sure how you come up with 176, but I am dubious. Here is a snap from one Sid gane where I attacked Germany with 7 cities. In the end I kiledl about 800 units on that little island. It is all posted on C3C Sid thread.

"Still you have to be amazed at the number of units they can muster. I killed at least 30-40 to get the city.
They countered with 46 and then I killed 26 more on my turn.
They had 126 in sight after that. so that is over 200.

They attacked and I killed 64 more, losing only 8. I figured that puts it at about 170 or so dead for them.
They attack and I kill 33 with no loss. It never got past the three armies.

Next turn more of the same 39-0. They now have 132 in front of me. About 240 dead and 132 in view. I am only talking about the the ones near me. Who knows what else they have.

Aztec landed a few units. Funny, I bet they have 300-600, but sent a handful.

How they could even build that many, even with the big discount and all the free unit support. I see only 4 cities and maybe they have 4 more I have not seen.

If they even sent the whole 132, I would probably be toast."


AFAIK they get 24 extra free support for each city and 8 bonus support. So that would be over 600 for 19 cities. Then they would have to pay maint and they get a huge production boost and could probably pay for another large group.

Anyway all I can tell you is I have dropped down on a number of AI cities at Sid and had to beat 60 or more units in that city and counter attacked by at least another hundred more the next turn.

	08-04-2004 09:51									#105
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I'm up to 260 AD, in Republic now. I've decided to go for something that may or may not be a bit crazy: Leonardo's Workshop. With Egypt so far ahead of the Zulus (and everyone else behind them), the only way a wonder cascade has much chance of getting in the way is if Egypt picked a really horrible place to build Sun Tsu's. (They've already finished Sistine.) And with no one having Engineering yet, a prebuild should give me a huge head start.

The down side is that I could end up with a major loss of gold researching things myself that I could have gotten from the Great Library. On the other hand, Egypt already went for Education and beyond without getting Engineering first, and if the Zulus would follow suit, I could be stuck researching the bottom of the tech tree myself and not have Leo's either.

I'm currently leaning in the direction of doing a massive cavalry upgrade (assuming I can get Leo's), allying with either the Arabs or the Mongols against the other, and letting the AIs wear each other down for a while before I start doing serious fighting myself. (I just hope I don't have too hard a time getting saltpeter.) If all goes well, I could then backstab the other civ once the alliance is over and gain control of that continent without the pain that is involved in invading a healthy AI. If anyone has any thoughts regarding that idea, either pro or con, I'd be interested to hear them.

Nathan

	08-04-2004 10:03									#106
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Aeson's calculation is 24 flat plus 8 per city for 19 cities.

19 * 8 + 24 = 176.

Of course that's just the free support and doesn't get into the hundreds of additional units the civs can pay to support out of their treasuries if they're willing to waste enough gold for that purpose.

Edit: Aeson, you're doing an impressive job with your civ, as usual.

	08-04-2004 10:04									#107
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 AFAIK they get 24 extra free support for each city and 8 bonus support. So that would be over 600 for 19 cities. Then they would have to pay maint and they get a huge production boost and could probably pay for another large group.

It's 8 bonus per city and 24 additional free support according to the editor.

(8 * 19) + 24 = 176

Your example shows just how much over the free support cap they go. 7 cities gives them 80 free support, and they were pushing ~300 units?

	08-04-2004 10:14									#108
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Nathan,

Are you sure you want to go for the easier targets first? I'm thinking Zulu (don't need Astronomy to get to them) will be my first target, then Egypt.

I guess it would be possible to leave Egypt alone and hit the domination limit, as they have ~15% of the landmass... but could be dangerous as they get further and further ahead in tech.

I think Leo's is a very good idea though! Will definitely try for it myself as Egypt is going up the top half in my game too, and no one else seems close. May even give away the Great Library after I get Theology, hit the Zulu with Knights/Swiss Mercs/Trebs, then take the GL back when a second civ looks like it's to Astronomy and research Navigation full bore.

	08-04-2004 10:18									#109
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Oh I see, that makes sense. It is not 24 per city, but 24 period. Whew, well the way they run it, it makes no difference. They will have many hundreds by the early middles ages. It seems more so if they are isolated as they have nothing else to build so often and can crank out one of those ancient units in a hurry.

So maybe they are having a cash flow problem from time to time and are not smart enough to stop over building.

For you sure it will be rough to invade a healthy AI Nathan, so if you can do anything to shake them up, it can't hurt.

	08-04-2004 11:14									#110
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I hadn't even considered trying to go after Egypt at this stage of the game on Sid level. But now that I think about it, with the way they've been fighting Japan, it's probably now or never.

With my having the Great Lighthouse, I have another option: I could bypass the Zulus and go straight after Egypt, probably signing a ROP with the Zulus so my troops can travel part of the distance to Egypt overland. If I go that route, I probably ought to send a couple Swiss Mercs to one of the more distant AIs to stage a "war" and see if I can go ahead and trigger my GA so I can build and support more troops in preparation for the war with Egypt. (Getting to the Mongols would take about thirteen turns, or longer if I'd want to target someone else, but that would still come before Leo's.)

For a stack with tebuchets, I'm inclined to think that MedInfs make better main offensive units than knights. Once you ping enemy units down to just a couple hit points, it's hard for knights' abiltiy to retreat to be worth thirty extra shields. Of course knights can play a very useful role against counterattacking enemy troops.

There is one serious complication if I go against Egypt, though: with their having the Great Wall, trebuchets attacking towns under size 7 would be subject to the Great Wall bug. So I'd probably have to skip over smaller towns until Thebes falls, and I hate to think how many times I might have to recapture Thebes before it stays in my hands. (Egypt has about seven times my culture at the moment, but I really don't like the idea of razing the Pyramids, Hanging Gardens, and Sistine Chapel.)

Thanks for the idea!

	08-04-2004 17:36									#111
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Impressive, fellas. Keep at it.

Nathan: regarding the FP question, I (of course) agree with Aeson that the new empire shape is an oval as opposed to the old barbell, and speed is of the essence due to the 3/8 OCN boost the FP offers.

I need to back up a page or two to look at your empire layout so I can suggest a particular city...

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 17:38									#112
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Ack, you've got your palace so centrally located it is tough to make a choice.

I'm having trouble reading the screenie, but I think "Tilburg" would be my choice.

-Arrian

	08-04-2004 19:43									#113
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The reason I would mostly go for Knights is because of the huge treasury. Shields will be the limiting factor for quite a while, and a Sword is just as expensive to build as a Horse.

I don't plan on having Knights defend until I have Knight armies. First landing will be a Settler only, on a Hill. Build the city, rush the walls, move as many Swiss Mercs as I can carry (shooting for at least 20 galleys, more likely 30-40) and hope I get an MGL on defense for a Merc Army.

If it looks like I can get by with only 3 units in an Army, I will for the most part. Then Galleons can carry them. Will probably need at least a few 4 unit Armies though.

	08-04-2004 20:10									#114
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Looking some more at the southern part of my empire, I think I squeezed in one more city than I should have when I built Leerdam. Only one of the tiles it's currently working, including the city tile itself, could not either be used by a coastal city or free a tile elsewhere for use by a coastal city, and my southeastern coastal cities are really starving for production. My current thought is that I could build my FP there to get the OCN boost sooner and then start building down the city with an eye toward abandoning it when Tilburg gets a palace prebuild up to enough shields to switch to the FP. I can't use a palace prebuild for Tilburg until Rotterdam switches from its palace prebuild to Leo's, but I can finish Tilburg's colosseum and have a marketplace well underway for the initial stage of my prebuild.

If I do things that way, and if I want to tackle Egypt soon, I'd have to delay my GA slightly but only slightly if I want the Leerdam FP in place when the GA starts. The GA would then help both with the tail end of building Leo's and with moving the FP to Tilburg.

	08-04-2004 20:49									#115
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In my game, at least at the moment, there are major gaps in cultural borders from the war between Egypt and Japan. It may not be necessary to land a settler under hostile conditions for me to get an initial base of operations against Egypt. Or if Egypt and Japan make peace, I could use a ROP with Japan to pre-position troops in Japanese territory and then see if I can arrange an alliance with Japan to suck Egypt's offensive forces into Japanese territory where they'd be slowed down.

Regarding the size of your treasury, keep in mind the possibility of pillaging your iron (if you do that sort of thing on Sid) and building warriors to upgrade to MedInfs. With that strategy, the limiting factor would very quickly shift from shields to gold. Then, depending on cities' production, they could build warriors for upgrade to MedInfs, horsemen for upgrade to knights, or spearmen for upgrade to Swiss Mercs (fitting cats or trebuchets, depending on technology available at the time, in there somewhere). My current thinking is that if I go after Egypt, I'll follow a strategy along those lines, building units normally first and then switching to an upgrade-based approach as the invasion gets closer (so unit upkeep isn't quite as big a deal as it would be if I built a lot of cheap units early).

	08-04-2004 23:26									#116
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Nathan: so you want to build the FP twice, in cities pretty close to one another?

EDIT: looking at a coastal city west of Tilburg that starts with an L but then I saw the city you're talking about.

But still, I don't get why you would want to build the FP there, and then build it again in Tilburg, two tiles away, instead of just building it in Tilburg.

-Arrian

	09-04-2004 00:55									#117
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If I hadn't poisoned Tilberg from switching to a FP by disbanding a couple regular warriors to bring down my unit support costs, switching Tilberg to a FP now would clearly be the right move. As it is, Leerdam has better production (eleven shields net per turn versus seven or maybe eventually eight) and, by the time I'd spend one turn getting gold together to rush Tilberg's colosseum and anther turn doing the rush, about a 70-shield head start. That makes for at least about a 14-turn difference in when a FP can be completed in the two places at current production rates - at a time when I'll be in a Golden Age, assuming I trigger one to set up an attack on Egypt. The Golden Age would reduce the time needed to complete a FP in Tilberg if I'd start that now, but would also make the cost of the delay greater per turn while it lasts.

Purely in terms of shields, I seriously doubt that building the FP twice could pay for itself. But assuming I get Leo's, each extra gold I would get from having my FP sooner would be worth two thirds of a shield in upgrades, and a civ in Republic generates gold faster than it generates shields. So my guess is that building the FP twice instead of once would pay for itself, but with no more experience than I have with FP effects in C3C, it's only a guess.

Nathan

	09-04-2004 01:33									#118
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Hmm. I see the problem.

Of course, a FP in the west or even north could be a possibility too...

edit: looked at the map, and I think Tilburg really is the best spot. Doh.

-Arrian

	09-04-2004 04:54									#119
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Japan disappeared from the face of the planet in 300 AD, with no one but the Dutch having ever known of their existence. They will be avenged if I have anything to say about it (which, on Sid level, I might or might not).

	09-04-2004 11:01									#120
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Aeson, please let me know when Leo's is built in your game. I've played up to that point, but I'd rather not say anything until you've reached at least roughly the same point.