01-04-2004 01:59									#61
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Fallujah needs to be taught a lesson. I propose to raize the city, put all males to sword, and sell all females into slavery.

	01-04-2004 01:59									#62
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I knew that was coming. edit: reference to GePap's post.

-Arrian

	01-04-2004 02:00									#63
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Yeah! lets act civlized and drop a ten megaton bomb-there won't even be bodies to mutilate left! So civilized.

	01-04-2004 02:01									#64
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quote: I don't remember having said "Barbarian Arabs". I remember having said "Barbarians". It is not the whole ethnic group I characterized, but the perpetrators of this heinous act. Barbarians them, just like the Irish you're talking about

Again, why you think you're better than others? you elitist *****.

	01-04-2004 02:03									#65
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yeah, civlized people only kill! They don't take dead bodies and mutilate them, cause....well, cause while the killing part is fine, the mutilating bodies is just right out!

Killing is of course not fine, but killing the adversary is part of war - to the extent that Iraqi insurgents are killing American troops rather than Iraqi civilians, they are on the wrong side of history, but they are NOT ipso facto barbarians. It may be barbaric to kill civilian contractors, but most of us arent interested in a long discussion of status, esp as we really dont what these contractors were doing. Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

	01-04-2004 02:05									#66
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This is an example of why we need a harsher presence in Iraq. More troops, more guns, more armour, more protection. Kill all the "resistance" until it exists no longer. Then we can have a peaceful, stable and democratic Arab state.

	01-04-2004 02:05									#67
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Another thing to be remembered is that if you kill someone in the arab world, without there being any cause for it, or by accident, then pay some blood money to the family. That will usually calm things down.

Now the Kurds I understand will simply steal what they need.

But don't take me to the market on this.

	01-04-2004 02:07									#68
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yeah! lets act civlized and drop a ten megaton bomb-there won't even be bodies to mutilate left! So civilized.

Of course theres a difference between what is actually done, and what some troll posts on the internet. Really you want to judege by what people post on the internet, theres some jihadi websites you really ought to take a look at.

In reality we will probably go tougher on Fallujah = IE curfews, more home searches, and the like. And they are last in line for reconstruction help. We'll talk about bulldozing homes, but probably wont do it. And even this will be controversial.

	01-04-2004 02:08									#69
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quote: Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

Mutilating a body is the extreme sign of contempt and hatred- I mean, the Greeks (certainly not 'barbarians' by definition) would let bodies be eaten by the dogs and vultures if the person was specially despised.

The fact is what was done is all TOO HUMAN.

	01-04-2004 02:09									#70
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark On the contrary, there are numerous example in history where an occupier has been able to take advantage of local governing structures. as for the US being hated, I suggest you read Oerdins thread, or just look at a variety of sources. All evidence suggests that the the Sunni arabs mainly hate us, some mistrust us, and a few like us. Among the Shiites a minority hate us, most mistrust us, and a considerable minority like us. Among the Kurds most like us. All in all not much worse, and probably better, than most occupations. The number who hate us was reasonably easy to predict. Where the admin got it wrong was in the number who mistrust us, rather than like us, principally among the Shia. They didnt seem to quite realize how much our failure to come to the aid of the Shia in 1991 still rankled.

You have learned NOTHING.

It is beyond sad.

When the us marines occupied Lebanon in 1985, THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED!

We know those who refuse to learn from history are destined to repeat it, but SO SOON???

The people who lack power sidle up to the occupiers, while it suits their purposes. In other words, while you destabilize a situation where the Sunni had power over the Shia.

They like you. Please. They wouldn't p!ss in your lap if your shorts were on fire.

	01-04-2004 02:11									#71
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yeah, civlized people only kill! They don't take dead bodies and mutilate them, cause....well, cause while the killing part is fine, the mutilating bodies is just right out!

I would probably haven't particpated in the thread if the Fallujans had only killed these people with a grenade. There is a war going on there, and war kills people - that's the very reason I was and remain against it.

But to see these people overjoyed by the death of their enemies, to see them give the worst humiliations to them (and they know it is the worst humiliation: it's not like their ceremonial burial is so different from ours), this is something I cannot tolerate, as a humanist.

	01-04-2004 02:11									#72
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Killing is of course not fine, but killing the adversary is part of war - to the extent that Iraqi insurgents are killing American troops rather than Iraqi civilians, they are on the wrong side of history, but they are NOT ipso facto barbarians. It may be barbaric to kill civilian contractors, but most of us arent interested in a long discussion of status, esp as we really dont what these contractors were doing. Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals.

Autopsy, anyone?

	01-04-2004 02:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Mutilating dead bodies, while not as bad as deliberately mutilating live ones, speaks to a mindset that most of us would find incompatible with humane ideals. I rather suspect most muslims and most arabs would ALSO find it incompatible with human ideals. Mutilating a body is the extreme sign of contempt and hatred- I mean, the Greeks (certainly not 'barbarians' by definition) would let bodies be eaten by the dogs and vultures if the person was specially despised. The fact is what was done is all TOO HUMAN.

The Greeks also had slavery, and the Spartans massacred every last man on Melos, according to Thucydides - and took the children and women into slavery. Im defining barbarism by post Enlightenment standards, not by 5th Century BCE greek standards, who used it essentially to refer to language.

Again, I rather suspect most muslims and arabs would agree. And most Iraqis, for that matter.

	01-04-2004 02:14									#74
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking You have learned NOTHING. It is beyond sad. When the us marines occupied Lebanon in 1985, THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED! We know those who refuse to learn from history are destined to repeat it, but SO SOON??? The people who lack power sidle up to the occupiers, while it suits their purposes. In other words, while you destabilize a situation where the Sunni had power over the Shia. They like you. Please. They wouldn't p!ss in your lap if your shorts were on fire.

Yup, the people who used to be oppressed sidle up to you. In this case thats the majority.

as for the kurds liking us, i really suggest you listen to folks who have actually been in Iraq.

	01-04-2004 02:16									#75
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Regarding the word 'civilian contractors'. Four of whom were killed just now. This is what i have read:

There are 20.000 of these in Iraq, and they are an integral part of the occupation. They provide security, communications and computer-assistance 'behind the front lines', fluid as they are.

So in other words they are high-end mercenaries. They won't go into the official statistics as military losses.

	01-04-2004 02:17									#76
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking You have learned NOTHING. It is beyond sad. When the us marines occupied Lebanon in 1985, THE EXACT SAME THING HAPPENED!

Of course the US Marines did not occupy Lebanon, they occupied Beirut only, and it was only West Beirut at that, IIRC. You really should study some history before telling people who know history better than you what we have or havent learned.

	01-04-2004 02:17									#77
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Viking Autopsy, anyone?

An autopsy is obviously comparable with attaching bodies on a car and pulling them, or hanging the bodies to a bridge while dancing

	01-04-2004 02:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Regarding the word 'civilian contractors'. Four of whom were killed just now. This is what i have read: There are 20.000 of these in Iraq, and they are an integral part of the occupation. They provide security, communications and computer-assistance 'behind the front lines', fluid as they are. So in other words they are high-end mercenaries. They won't go into the official statistics as military losses.

There are also contractors who restore power lines, work with schools, etc.

But thats why i said it wasnt a good idea to focus on this now.

	01-04-2004 02:22									#79
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark The Greeks also had slavery, and the Spartans massacred every last man on Melos, according to Thucydides - and took the children and women into slavery. Im defining barbarism by post Enlightenment standards, not by 5th Century BCE greek standards, who used it essentially to refer to language. Again, I rather suspect most muslims and arabs would agree. And most Iraqis, for that matter.

Why do you think most Iraqis would agree? And agree with what? The attack was wrong? or just the part about mulitaitng the body was wrong?

The enlightenment says nothing about dead bodies-I don;t remember Kant's tretise on the treatment of corpses. The fact is that mistreating a corpse is an ancient taboo overall, and breaking said taboo invariably is done to show the strength of the emotion of the act-an act so extreme it is shocking. I hear people here asking for people to be killed for the body mutilating bit-what law was broken? Does mutilating a corpse call for death? Does not that sound barbaric?

And do you honeslty think the people who mutilated those corpses would think it OK to have their relative bodies mutilated back? Of course not.

Let me just say I am not anymore shocked by these contractors getting killed and mutilated than I am by knowing they were killed and the corpses being left burning or whereever until someone came to get and burry them.

	01-04-2004 02:27									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor But to see these people overjoyed by the death of their enemies, to see them give the worst humiliations to them (and they know it is the worst humiliation: it's not like their ceremonial burial is so different from ours), this is something I cannot tolerate, as a humanist.

You know, from an antropological perspective I can understand it, because they have had an experience of upmost clarity, and they have had no other ways of venting their frustrations. Like here in the west we can see violent movies, porn, sports, elections and so on, which evokes powerful emotions, and release.

Actually the scenes from Falluja reminded me of the riots in Los Angeles, or the riots at various football stadiums in Europe.

	01-04-2004 02:30									#81
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why do you think most Iraqis would agree? And agree with what? The attack was wrong? or just the part about mulitaitng the body was wrong? The enlightenment says nothing about dead bodies-I don;t remember Kant's tretise on the treatment of corpses. The fact is that mistreating a corpse is an ancient taboo overall, and breaking said taboo invariably is done to show the strength of the emotion of the act-an act so extreme it is shocking.

I would say youve answered it. Taking intense emotional joy in the killing of an ordinary adversary soldier is barbaric.

quote: I hear people here asking for people to be killed for the body mutilating bit-what law was broken? Does mutilating a corpse call for death? Does not that sound barbaric?

It certainly does. Of course its essentially people trolling you.

quote: And do you honeslty think the people who mutilated those corpses would think it OK to have their relative bodies mutilated back? Of course not.

In fact theyd be screaming to high heaven. What made you think i thought otherwise?

quote: Let me just say I am not anymore shocked by these contractors getting killed and mutilated than I am by knowing they were killed and the corpses being left burning or whereever until someone came to get and burry them.

Who said i was shocked? Barbarism isnt always shocking.

	01-04-2004 02:33									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Actually the scenes from Falluja reminded me of the riots in Los Angeles, or the riots at various football stadiums in Europe.

It's called mass suggestion - mob rule. People suck.

	01-04-2004 02:38									#83
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quote: Taking intense emotional joy in the killing of an ordinary adversary soldier is barbaric

[nitpick]not soldiers[/nitpick]

Why? The urban cosmopolitan civlized man doesn't take joy in killing the enemy? Or what you say applied only to "ordinary" adversaries? So if they mutilated Bush, that would be fine?

To me the "barbaric" act was the killing-that they taunted the corpses and mistreated them is a detail-and sadly, civilized man atcs "barbaric" with about the same frequency as "barbarians".

	01-04-2004 02:41									#84
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Why do you think most Iraqis would agree? And agree with what? The attack was wrong? or just the part about mulitaitng the body was wrong?

the part about mutilating the body. (whether they would agree with the attack itself gets to a political discussion that i think belongs elsewhere)

My basis is that most of the muslims i have met personally are humane, civilized people, and would, I think, be shocked by this behavior. I suppose thats a biased sample, muslims who live (at least temporarily) in the US. I assume that Iraqis are not more barbaric than others in the region, and may in fact be less so. Certainly their restraint in the face of attempts to provoke civil war (an excellent WaPo piece on that a couple of days ago) would so suggest.

	01-04-2004 02:43									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf It's called mass suggestion - mob rule. People suck.

Actually I think that it was caused by a lack of mass suggestion. Because when you have one centralized authority capable of penetrating the minds of citizens, then that is called civilized society. When suggestion is created through hearsay, the jungle drums, or in a decentralized fashion, then anarchy occurs. And one feather lost turns into five dead chickens, if you know the story.

	01-04-2004 02:45									#86
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Why in hell is anyone surprised? When you go to war, this is the sort of thing that happens. Duh. This is why tens of millions of people worldwide protested the US invasion beforehand. War is violent and out of control, by definition; that's why real patriots try to avoid it.

The real barbarian is the buffoon who said, "Bring 'em on!"

	01-04-2004 02:45									#87
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quote: Originally posted by GePap quote: Taking intense emotional joy in the killing of an ordinary adversary soldier is barbaric [nitpick]not soldiers[/nitpick] Why? The urban cosmopolitan civlized man doesn't take joy in killing the enemy? Or what you say applied only to "ordinary" adversaries? So if they mutilated Bush, that would be fine? To me the "barbaric" act was the killing-that they taunted the corpses and mistreated them is a detail-and sadly, civilized man atcs "barbaric" with about the same frequency as "barbarians".

I said ordinary soldiers, as taking revenge on an individual known say, to have commited atrocities would be more understandable. Whether Bush falls in that category is not something i care to debate right now. However it was clear to me that these guys were ordinary - they may not have been soldiers, but as others have pointed out the distinction on the ground is not always clear.

I made no claim for "civilized man" - you will note i agreed with Spiffor that this action as "barbaric" when its done in Ulster as when its done in Fallujah. Civilized is as civilized does.

	01-04-2004 02:46									#88
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem Why in hell is anyone surprised? When you go to war, this is the sort of thing that happens. Duh.

Then why hasnt it happened anywhere else in Iraq???

	01-04-2004 02:47									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc And one feather lost turns into five dead chickens, if you know the story.

I think I see what you mean, but I don't know the story. Care to educate me?

	01-04-2004 02:49									#90
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Spiffor, these people hate the occupiers enough to kill them. They don't get many chances to do so. Do you really think it matters at all that they celebrated gleefully and mutilated the bodies?

It's the hate and the killing that we should be concerned about, not the dancing and desecration.