01-04-2004 21:18									#121
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Maude fought the Turks along the Tigris in the Great War. He wooed the arabs - holding out the Turks as a common enemy. I am not sure that worked but equally I don't think he ran into arab opposition.

He died there of cholera.

The fact that this town has been the target of US/UK air raids does not justify the behaviour of the mob. They are a disgrace to themselves and to their people.

Police work and the administration of criminal justice must be as difficult as everything else is in Iraq right now. But I hope the Iraqis and/or the occupying forces try very hard to bring those most directly responsible to book.

	01-04-2004 21:46									#122
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader The fact that this town has been the target of US/UK air raids does not justify the behaviour of the mob. They are a disgrace to themselves and to their people.

That is true, but what I was aiming at was the partyline that Falluja should be such a place of resistance, because they were particularily loyal to Saddam - and dependant on his goodwill towards them. That official analysis is perhaps not so accurate, as it might seem.

	01-04-2004 22:14									#123
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Man, you are so full of yourself. Any reasonable person can distinguish between the legitimacy of authorized autopsies, and organ donations from that of inhumane, callous body mutilation.

Mr. Fun, I disagree. The Viking is being completely reasonable here. Killing people is harmful. Mutilating the bodies afterward can't do them much more harm. But just use common sense: if you hate someone so much that you think it's legitimate to kill them, why would it be at all out of bounds to show your hatred even further by torching the corpses?

I'm not saying any of this is a good thing. I'm just surprised that so many people think mutilating the bodies is of any consequence in comparison to killing them in the first place.

If they could come and chop up every American, some of them would choose to do so. They hate us! For good reasons and for bad reasons both, IMO, but how can anyone be surprised at any action that people take to try to drive away an occupying power?

	01-04-2004 23:08									#124
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Man, you are so full of yourself. Any reasonable person can distinguish between the legitimacy of authorized autopsies, and organ donations from that of inhumane, callous body mutilation.

Any reasonable "western" person in a "developed" nation.

I can distinguish. You can distinguish.

The point someone made is that mutilating a dead body violates a universal standard.

I say that many cultures would find it normal to mutilate the body or a war victim - cut off their ears as trophies, maybe cut off their head. But find it abnormal to cut up the body of a loved one for any purpose.

I don't think the term "inhumane" applies to the treatment of a corpse. I'm not sure it was callous.

It was intended to communicate a total lack of respect, a deep-seated hatred. Do you think it was effective?

	02-04-2004 00:19									#125
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DUH -- of course the message came loud and clear, Viking -- they HATE us.

As for United States being a foreign, occupation power in Iraq -- isn't it true that the majority of Iraqis are cooperating with US soldiers and officers, and that they are happy with Saddam's overthrow?



As for whether or not it's acceptable to mutilate a corpse simply because the person is already dead. To me, there is no question -- it's callous, and repugnant. In fact, in the early 20th century, lynch mobs in United States took carnival-like pleasure in mutilating a corpse of a black lynch victim after they killed him.

This example shows that mutilation is meant to dehumanize the victim by show callous disregard for the body of the victim.

	02-04-2004 00:34									#126
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Are we still on this stupid autopsies=mutilation of the dead arguement?

	02-04-2004 01:21									#127
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Without some means of collecting verifiable and trustworthy information about the feelings of the broad range of Iraqis, I think we would be fools to hold any particular belief as to whether they're happy we invaded and occupied them.

But it's pretty clear that more than a few of them are more passionate in their opposition to it than you probably are about anything in the world. They blow themselves up in order to kill a few of their own collaborating countrymen!

Given the strength of their feelings, do you really think that mutilation of the enemy's dead bodies, which of course is intended to dehumanize them, is either surprising or indicative of anything but a desperate, blinding hatred?

They're not more contemptible or barbarian or savage or evil just because they mutilate the dead bodies. They just hate the invaders more than you can imagine, and they have very little other opportunity to demonstrate it.

	02-04-2004 02:10									#128
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quote: An Iraqi Governing Council member stressed that those responsible represented just a small minority of Iraqis but also encouraged U.S. troops to think carefully about how to respond. "In 1958, July 14th, some members of the royal family were killed and mutilated. Iraqis were ashamed for decades at this barbaric event," Samir Sumaidi said. "Now after this I feel that again Iraqis will hang their heads in shame." .

	02-04-2004 02:14									#129
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quote: "The term 'collateral damage' is inapplicable", says Ramsey Clark, pointing out that the attacks were in broad daylight, when much of the area would have been at its most populated. He states that attacks on civilians were stated by the military (then as now) were to "demoralize

Cite please where the military has stated that civilians were attacked with intent to demoralize.

Ramsey Clarke is not a particularly credible source, Im afraid.

	02-04-2004 02:51									#130
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Ramsey Clarke is not a particularly credible source, Im afraid.

INTERNATIONAL ACTION CENTER

Founded by Ramsey Clark, Former U.S. Attorney General

Information, Activism, and Resistance to U.S.Militarism, War, and Corporate Greed, Linking with Struggles Against Racism and Oppression within the United States

http://www.iacenter.org/

Sounds very credible to me.

	02-04-2004 03:07									#131
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"[Y]ou've offered a view of those who oppose Bush's military plans that is seriously at odds with reality: The antiwar movement equals the left and the left equals the followers of Ramsey Clark, defender of Slobodan Milosevic and assorted Hutu genocidaires and other thugs, who is the founder of the International Action Center, which is closely linked to ANSWER, a front for the Workers World Party."

Katha Pollit, editor of the ultra-liberal Nation, trying to distinguish ordinary war protesters from Ramsey Clark.

	02-04-2004 03:16									#132
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Oh great another thread full of this "I'm not surprised"- nonsense.

	02-04-2004 03:24									#133
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So Ramsey Clark is a Stalinist, a red fascist, a larouchite or what have you, but how does that detract from his credibility?

	02-04-2004 03:26									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc So Ramsey Clark is a Stalinist, a red fascist, a larouchite or what have you, but how does that detract from his credibility?

erh, Stalinists have been known to lie, even more than Bush admin aides, when its helpful to advancing a political agenda.

	02-04-2004 03:28									#135
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Clark's mind isn't what it once was. The idea that a former AG of the US would become a Red just doesn't strike me as someting that would happen if he were in complete control of his faculties. He's fallen in with a cult.

	02-04-2004 03:30									#136
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LotM:

And liberals don't lie? (Clinton)

So by your definition everybody is lying.

	02-04-2004 03:31									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc And liberals don't lie? (Clinton) So by your definition everybody is lying.

sure - just not as blatantly and as consistently as Stalinists.

	02-04-2004 03:34									#138
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He's fallen in with a cult.

The La Rouche movement. The man who 'invented' SDI.

	02-04-2004 03:57									#139
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quote: Originally posted by debeest Without some means of collecting verifiable and trustworthy information about the feelings of the broad range of Iraqis, I think we would be fools to hold any particular belief as to whether they're happy we invaded and occupied them. But it's pretty clear that more than a few of them are more passionate in their opposition to it than you probably are about anything in the world. They blow themselves up in order to kill a few of their own collaborating countrymen! Given the strength of their feelings, do you really think that mutilation of the enemy's dead bodies, which of course is intended to dehumanize them, is either surprising or indicative of anything but a desperate, blinding hatred? They're not more contemptible or barbarian or savage or evil just because they mutilate the dead bodies. They just hate the invaders more than you can imagine, and they have very little other opportunity to demonstrate it.

Just because an act may not be surprising, given the character of murderous savages, does not make their act any less contemptible.

	02-04-2004 04:22									#140
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Just because an act may not be surprising, given the character of murderous savages, does not make their act any less contemptible.

If your closest loved one had been killed by foreigners. If yourself had lost an arm or a leg to these foreigners. Now these same foreigners are patrolling your streets searching your home. What would you not do if you had the opportunity to strike back. Even if you don't take into consideration the animosity between the Islamic and Western worlds.

The U.S. military engaged in body mutilation and rape in Vietnam even though the U.S. had only been in conflict with the vietnamese for a relatively brief amount of time.

	02-04-2004 05:11									#141
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I wonder how much the McDonalds franchising rights to Fallujah cost now.

On the other hand, it would make for a reality TV show that I'd actually watch.

	02-04-2004 05:55									#142
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War sucks

	02-04-2004 07:02									#143
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It's their own damn fault for being there.

Rule #1, if you are an American, don't go to places where people will burn you alive for being American.

	02-04-2004 08:50									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If your closest loved one had been killed by foreigners. If yourself had lost an arm or a leg to these foreigners. Now these same foreigners are patrolling your streets searching your home. What would you not do if you had the opportunity to strike back. Even if you don't take into consideration the animosity between the Islamic and Western worlds. The U.S. military engaged in body mutilation and rape in Vietnam even though the U.S. had only been in conflict with the vietnamese for a relatively brief amount of time.

I'm not ignorant about past crimes against humanity that Americans have committed. Did you miss the post where I mentioned the carnival tradition of lynching within United States?

I hold those same Americans who have done such acts in the same contempt that I hold the barbarians who have brutalized the bodies of Americans in Iraq.

	02-04-2004 09:12									#145
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm not ignorant about past crimes against humanity that Americans have committed. Did you miss the post where I mentioned the carnival tradition of lynching within United States? I hold those same Americans who have done such acts in the same contempt that I hold the barbarians who have brutalized the bodies of Americans in Iraq.

My first paragraph was a comment on your statement. My second is a general statement and Americans are not alone in what you refer to as barbaric treatment. My point is that these actions are human and not barbaric. I only used the U.S. as one example of cruelty.

	02-04-2004 12:28									#146
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So now you're saying that such actions are not barbaric, simply because historically, many other groups of people have done such horrible things??

	02-04-2004 12:43									#147
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark "[Y]ou've offered a view of those who oppose Bush's military plans that is seriously at odds with reality: The antiwar movement equals the left and the left equals the followers of Ramsey Clark, defender of Slobodan Milosevic and assorted Hutu genocidaires and other thugs, who is the founder of the International Action Center, which is closely linked to ANSWER, a front for the Workers World Party." Katha Pollit, editor of the ultra-liberal Nation, trying to distinguish ordinary war protesters from Ramsey Clark.

I knew than rightwing fantic will make these charge. Hutu genocidaires where Christian Fundie of the Pat Robertson type. The GOP refuse to support Bill Clinton on sending Americian troop there. They want to get back at the Democrate for not supportion Bush Sr enought. Very childish of the sureloser GOP that Bush Sr lost the Presidental race to Bill Clinton.

For than long time the UN want they own militily force of 100,000 to 250,000 men guess who alway oppose the idear out of fear the Christian Fundie who seen to believe this going to give power to the AntiChrist. First there isnot going to be than AntiChrist in the first place than 250,000 UN troop arenot enought to be than world conquestion force.

	02-04-2004 13:02									#148
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So now you're saying that such actions are not barbaric, simply because historically, many other groups of people have done such horrible things??

I'm stating that it's human nature. As human as road rage, playground bullies or any big or small act of aggression.

	02-04-2004 13:14									#149
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I'm almost inclined to agree.

we (especially americans) have the tendency to demonize our enemies to make them seem as monsters.

But this is not the case. Even americans can act this way. Many humans are capable of such actions. Although I don't think I am . I'm just not a violent person.

	02-04-2004 13:16									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus I'm stating that it's human nature. As human as road rage, playground bullies or any big or small act of aggression.

That's nice -- so what?