03-04-2004 00:44									#61
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I guess in the old time killing of somebody is ok. People are less apart from animals then ... I've heard stories in ancient China when somebody boils his son to feed his master/king ...

	03-04-2004 01:03									#62
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I wonder if the jurry would accept and insanity defense, or if they would feel vengeful and convict her of murder even if they given enough evidence to muster an insanity decision?

Why couldn;t God ask you to kill your child? Nothing in the bible says he couldn't, and for a 'guy' willing to let his son commit suicide and order genocide for his greater aims, what's one more kid?

	03-04-2004 01:20									#63
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quote: for now I know that thou fearest God

Why does Christianity put so much emphasis on fearing God?

If you love God and God loves you, there shouldn't be any fear. Sadaam used fear to control his people but I would think that an all-good entity wouldn't resort to such tactics.

Sounds to me that religious and political leaders promote the fear aspect in order to manipulate and control people.

	03-04-2004 03:19									#64
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It does not mean to literally fear him, but to respect/revere him.

0/10, just for directly mentioning Hussein.

	03-04-2004 03:20									#65
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quote: Mainstream Christians, Jews, and Muslims will find this horribly repugnant, and against the tenets of their religion -- no matter their sect/denomination.

Well said Mr. Fun.

	03-04-2004 03:21									#66
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Not really. I prefer mocking condesencion when it comes to threads like this.

	03-04-2004 03:22									#67
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught Why does Christianity put so much emphasis on fearing God?

THe piece you quoted comes actually from the Old Testament, which is an ancient piece of mythology aiming at enforcing a system of values and norms through supernatural fear, because central governments weren't strong enough to instill sufficient "normal" fear.

Christianty was different in that it began a shift from fearing God to loving God. Why the Old Testament was kept after the Niceae council (which defined which books were Kosher and which weren't) I don't know though. I guess the Church saw fear as a useful tool for its mind control, and as such didn't remove them.

Since these texts are supposed to be holy, they haven't been removed anymore, no matter how outdated they may be even for a modern approach of religion. So we are stuck with them as being considered "christian", when they're in fact little more than mythology that was convenient at a point in history.

	03-04-2004 03:25									#68
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quote: Why does Christianity put so much emphasis on fearing God?

Do they? Not really. Some people find God hard to love when confronted by him, and find him easier to fear. While it would be prefereable to love God, and to do things out of love for him, there is nothing wrong with fearing God as well.

You have to remember that there are two interconnected aspects of God, his righteousness and his love for each one of us. You cannot have the one apart from the other.

quote: If you love God and God loves you, there shouldn't be any fear. Sadaam used fear to control his people but I would think that an all-good entity wouldn't resort to such tactics.

I think there is still some fear, even if you love him.

quote: Sounds to me that religious and political leaders promote the fear aspect in order to manipulate and control people.

Fear alone will not motivate people to respect God, to follow his commandments. It can help as a starting point, to show people the need for repentence, but love is a far better motivator. You obey his commandments because you know he loves you and cares for you.

	03-04-2004 03:25									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor THe piece you quoted comes actually from the Old Testament, which is an ancient piece of mythology ....

psst... Spiffor. The whole bible is mythology.

	03-04-2004 03:27									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie psst... Spiffor. The whole bible is mythology.

Spiffor is an atheist. Just not an annoying one. Like a few of the people in this thread.

	03-04-2004 03:27									#71
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quote: Why the Old Testament was kept after the Niceae council (which defined which books were Kosher and which weren't) I don't know though.

They were kept because they were believed to be the inspired testimony of God. It would be misleading to reject the OT, because even Christ regarded the OT as authoritative, and used parts as the basis of his teachings.

	03-04-2004 03:29									#72
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quote: God stops Abraham, its just a test yuk yuk, but god does tell him to do it, and he was prepared to do so.

God also provides a lamb instead. God is merciful.

	03-04-2004 03:31									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie psst... Spiffor. The whole bible is mythology.

Yes, but Jesus approach to religion was different, in that it used very different methods to have people flock to him. Actually, if it weren't for the magical juju filling the New Testament, Jesus teachings could look like a form of "philosophy" or "wisdom": an outline of virtuous life, for the sake of being virtuous.

Unfortunately, we westerners seem to be much more stupid than easterners, because we apparently can't adhere to this kind of outline without some supranatural being to advertise it.

	03-04-2004 03:33									#74
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quote: God is merciful

The lamb may think otherwise

	03-04-2004 03:35									#75
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quote: Actually, if it weren't for the magical juju filling the New Testament, Jesus teachings could look like a form of "philosophy" or "wisdom": an outline of virtuous life, for the sake of being virtuous.

And without the 'magic juju,' Christianity would just be another teaching of men, without any true authority.

quote: Unfortunately, we westerners seem to be much more stupid than easterners, because we apparently can't adhere to this kind of outline without some supranatural being to advertise it.

No one can adhere to any set of teachings, even Christianity. All of us sin and fall short. What makes the teachings of Christ superior is that in fact he is the Son of God.

Secondly, Christianity is an 'Eastern' religion. For quite some time they had more adherants in the East, than in the West.

	03-04-2004 03:36									#76
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quote: The lamb may think otherwise

You would have preferred the human sacrifice?

	03-04-2004 03:38									#77
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quote: Verto has just said he would "probably" do something he holds from immoral if convinced God orders him. I'd expect pretty much any person who's very faithful to hold the same argument.

God would never ask me to do something immoral by his standards.

Satan might though. I think this is one of his favourite tricks.

	03-04-2004 03:40									#78
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quote: Dt. 21:18, 21: If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... all the men of the city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

Do we live in a theocracy? Very different situation now than before.

quote: Numbers 31:17-18: Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. Samuel 15:3: Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Let me ask you, gamenaught. Do you believe war is immoral?

	03-04-2004 03:40									#79
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quote: God would never ask me to do something immoral by his standards.

As has been mentioned before, Abraham was asked to do something immoral. You are presumptuous enough to dictate what God will and will not require of you?

	03-04-2004 03:40									#80
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quote: You are presumptuous enough to dictate what God will and will not require of you?

Abraham believed that God would intervene and offer something else for sacrifice.

quote: You are presumptuous enough to dictate what God will and will not require of you?

I said his standards and not mine. He can demand of me anything by his standards.

	03-04-2004 03:43									#81
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"And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."

I'm assuming that is the basis for your above statement? If so, I would have to disagree.

	03-04-2004 03:44									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I said his standards and not mine. He can demand of me anything by his standards.

I apologize, and in light of this correction agree.

	03-04-2004 03:46									#83
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quote: I'm assuming that is the basis for your above statement? If so, I would have to disagree.

Yep. I figured you knew, so I didn't cite.

Why would you disagree?

	03-04-2004 04:03									#84
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I'm pretty sure that the word "fear" as used in the OT doesn't have the same meaning as the modern word. At that time and in that usage "fear" means to heed.

	03-04-2004 04:06									#85
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught Samuel 15:3: Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Amaleks were evil robotic beings which the Doctor often had to contend with. Fortunately they were rather clumsy and easily defeated with even the humblest of household appliances.

	03-04-2004 04:08									#86
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I am no archeopsychologist, but I think ancient people would fear a God who is very keen on taking lives on a whim (my favorite part remains Onan, of course )

	03-04-2004 04:14									#87
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quote: Amaleks were evil robotic beings which the Doctor often had to contend with. Fortunately they were rather clumsy and easily defeated with even the humblest of household appliances.

	03-04-2004 04:24									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Mainstream Christians, Jews, and Muslims will find this horribly repugnant, and against the tenets of their religion -- no matter their sect/denomination.

How do you know God didn't say this to her? It's not like he hasn't done it before.

	03-04-2004 04:39									#89
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Anyway, unfortunately for this woman, a jury is unlikely to be sympathetic. Juries hate women who kill their children. She's better off without a jury and throwing herself on the mercy of the court (depening on the judge). Course, if she does that she's still screwed. She knew what she was doing was wrong but did so anyway. She is not legally insane, however much she may be hearing voices.

	03-04-2004 05:13									#90
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quote: It does not mean to literally fear him, but to respect/revere him. 0/10, just for directly mentioning Hussein.

Hey, I really thought that "fear" meant..well..."fear." 3/10!!