03-04-2004 05:24									#91
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quote: Do they? Not really.

That is what I assumed since the phrase "God fearing" is so popular. But if it does mean respect, the Man should adopt Eric Cartman's "Respect my authoritah!!!"

	03-04-2004 05:32									#92
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quote: Let me ask you, gamenaught. Do you believe war is immoral?

War is sometimes the lesser of two evils..

quote: Samuel 15:3: Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

..but slaying child and infant is just plain evil.

	03-04-2004 06:41									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Well said Mr. Fun.

It does bother me sometimes though, that when I stand up for religious people, some of those who (nice way putting it here ) I have er, SERIOUS differences with, compliments me on my statements.

	03-04-2004 06:44									#94
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH for you heathens out there (with no broadband) The pertinent chunk of Genesis 22 (King James version) God stops Abraham, its just a test yuk yuk, but god does tell him to do it, and he was prepared to do so.

Thanks, Spencer -- so God commanded Abraham to stop the planned sacrifice of his son. Thus, God would condemn anyone who would kill their own children and in turn, means that it IS immoral to kill your own children, even if you thought God was telling you to do this.

If you believe God is telling you to kill your own child, then read this Biblical passage, and you will find yourself acting against God.

	03-04-2004 06:50									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am no archeopsychologist, but I think ancient people would fear a God who is very keen on taking lives on a whim (my favorite part remains Onan, of course )

You identify with St. Onan? Is he your patron saint?

	03-04-2004 06:55									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You really believe that mainstream Christianity, Judahism, and Islam allow for moral affirmation of killing your children if you believe God tells you to do so?

If it doesn't, then "mainstream Christianity" isn't actually Christian

	03-04-2004 06:57									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Any real Christian would know that God would not ask them to do such a thing. No sane Christian would ever believe that God would order such a thing. For one, the tale of Abraham's test is pretty much universally taught.

Ah, so you don't think the morality flows from God, but rather morality is something outside of God, and the only reason you worship him is because you believe he is in accordance with that morality... interesting.

	03-04-2004 06:57									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich If it doesn't, then "mainstream Christianity" isn't actually Christian

what?

	03-04-2004 06:58									#99
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In the sense that "mainstream Christians" are not deriving their morals from their religion, but rather using their religion as a rationalization for their morals.

	03-04-2004 06:59									#100
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I wish I remember the Biblical text you're referring to. Did God approve though, of Abraham's sacrifice, even if Abraham THOUGHT God wanted him to do so??

God told Abraham not to do it at the last minute - the fact that Abraham was willing to do so was enough proof of his faith.

You have to wonder about a God that WANTS people who would kill their children if he said so...

	03-04-2004 07:01									#101
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But in the end, God did NOT want Abraham to kill his child. So therefore, the tenets of Christianity find it immoral and grossly repugnant to kill one's own child.

	03-04-2004 07:02									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor THe piece you quoted comes actually from the Old Testament, which is an ancient piece of mythology aiming at enforcing a system of values and norms through supernatural fear, because central governments weren't strong enough to instill sufficient "normal" fear.

Sounds exactly like the Catholic Church

quote: Christianty was different in that it began a shift from fearing God to loving God.

Not really, no.

quote: Since these texts are supposed to be holy, they haven't been removed anymore, no matter how outdated they may be even for a modern approach of religion. So we are stuck with them as being considered "christian", when they're in fact little more than mythology that was convenient at a point in history.

The same could be said about the entire bible

	03-04-2004 07:03									#103
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun But in the end, God did NOT want Abraham to kill his child. So therefore, the tenets of Christianity find it immoral and grossly repugnant to kill one's own child.

No, they don't - because the requirement for membership in God's little club was willingness to kill your child

	03-04-2004 07:03									#104
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quote: It does bother me sometimes though, that when I stand up for religious people, some of those who (nice way putting it here ) I have er, SERIOUS differences with, compliments me on my statements.

Good point!

	03-04-2004 07:04									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich No, they don't - because the requirement for membership in God's little club was willingness to kill your child

Yeah of course -- today when people want to convert to Christianity, the parents are required to go through the act of killing their child in front of the congregation, to demonstrate that hypothetically, they would be willing to kill their child.

	03-04-2004 07:06									#106
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I was talking about Abraham specifically.

Obviously, actual "christians" today don't believe it is right, but my point is that their morality does not, in fact, originate in the Bible.

Religion is almost always used as a justification for already-held social and moral values.

	03-04-2004 07:09									#107
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Of course - I think I can agree with the obvious fact that when the dozens of different authors of different parts of the Bible wrote the passages, they were writing them based on already-held sense of morality.

	03-04-2004 07:11									#108
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Maybe God was conducting a sting operation and sent Abraham to hell for agreeing to sacrifice his son.

	03-04-2004 07:12									#109
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No, I mean christians today. It's rather simple to prove, actually - the fact that people can use the same document, the bible, to argue diametrically opposed positions on issues like gay marriage or abortion shows that virtually no one gets what they think is right or wrong from the bible. Instead, the simply justify what they ALREADY thought was right or wrong with the bible.

	03-04-2004 07:12									#110
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quote: Originally posted by gamenaught Maybe God was conducting a sting operation and sent Abraham to hell for agreeing to sacrifice his son.

	03-04-2004 07:14									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich No, I mean christians today. It's rather simple to prove, actually - the fact that people can use the same document, the bible, to argue diametrically opposed positions on issues like gay marriage or abortion shows that virtually no one gets what they think is right or wrong from the bible. Instead, the simply justify what they ALREADY thought was right or wrong with the bible.

Yeah, that does make sense -- hence, my alienation from Catholicism (religion of my family). And hence, my desire to find an Episcopalian congregation in which I can take an active part in with complete acceptance of part of what I am.

	03-04-2004 07:21									#112
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But the consequence of that is that you're only "Christian" because you see affirmation of your beliefs in the Bible, when in fact any such affirmation is due to (at best) selective reading.

	03-04-2004 07:21									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich No, I mean christians today. It's rather simple to prove, actually - the fact that people can use the same document, the bible, to argue diametrically opposed positions on issues like gay marriage or abortion shows that virtually no one gets what they think is right or wrong from the bible. Instead, the simply justify what they ALREADY thought was right or wrong with the bible.

The Bible is progressive though, written over a period of many centuries, evolving as a document. Christ stated that he was the last great sacrifice for humanity's sake and that there would never be another required, so any one who believes that God requires them to sacrifice her children is contravening Christ's teachings.

	03-04-2004 07:23									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich But the consequence of that is that you're only "Christian" because you see affirmation of your beliefs in the Bible, when in fact any such affirmation is due to (at best) selective reading.

I never did take the Bible in literal terms. Otherwise, I would be a fundie now, wouldn't I?

	03-04-2004 07:23									#115
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But what if God sent another prophet, and yet again changed what was "right"? Say, now God thought that heterosexual sex was a sin?

	03-04-2004 07:25									#116
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I never did take the Bible in literal terms. Otherwise, I would be a fundie now, wouldn't I?

And, in not taking the Bible in "literal terms", you really aren't a Christian.

	03-04-2004 07:35									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich But what if God sent another prophet, and yet again changed what was "right"? Say, now God thought that heterosexual sex was a sin?

The prophet would then be calling Christ a liar, which would obviously preclude his being considered a Christian and would therefore be dutefully ignored by all real Christians.

	03-04-2004 07:35									#118
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Was Jesus calling all the other prophets liars? No - he basically said "God changed his mind". Why couldn't God do so again?

EDIT: oh, and one of the premises was that the prophet was sent by GOD.

	03-04-2004 07:36									#119
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If I was a religioni...er..believer and a voice in my head said sacrifice my son, I'd assume it was Satan pretending to be God.

On the other hand, Satan would have to be really stupid to believe humans would believe that God would order someone to kill their own child.

Oh, wait..

	03-04-2004 08:10									#120
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Thanks, Spencer -- so God commanded Abraham to stop the planned sacrifice of his son. Thus, God would condemn anyone who would kill their own children and in turn, means that it IS immoral to kill your own children, even if you thought God was telling you to do this. If you believe God is telling you to kill your own child, then read this Biblical passage, and you will find yourself acting against God.

Good Lord!

You read that exerpt from genesis and came up with that interpretation!

I foresee a great future for you in (liberal) politics.