04-04-2004 04:05									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You place WAY too much emphasis on playoff experience.

So do NHL coaches. For good reason. Ottawa has had a series of excellent teams that have achieved in the regular season but have proved wanting in the playoffs. You show me the last Stanley Cup winning team that didn't have veteran experience (if you can find one), and I'll show you five more that did.

Last year: The Devils - Brodeur, Nieuwendyk, Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski.
2002 - Detroit - too many to name
2001 - Colorado - Bourque, Roy, Sakic, Foote, Blake
2000 - Devils - same as above but - Nieuwendyk and + Mogilny
1999 - Dallas - Belfour, Hull, Nieuwendyk, Muller, Modano, etc.

quote: All that means is they're old.

Would you rather have Kiprusoff or Brodeur? Veteran experience matters - the last five cup winners have had it in spades.

	04-04-2004 04:05									#32
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ok, I've now officially changed my avatar.

Here's to not choking down the stretch!

	04-04-2004 04:06									#33
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No Bertuzzi, no Cup.
No Bertuzzi, no Cup.
No Bertuzzi, no Cup.
No Bertuzzi, no Cup.
No Bertuzzi, no Cup.
No Bertuzzi, no Cup.
No Bertuzzi, no Cup.

	04-04-2004 04:08									#34
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So that means they'll cancel it this year? I don't recall a Bertuzzi on any other team...

	04-04-2004 04:09									#35
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You couldn't win with Cloutier anyway, that ****er couldn't stop a balloon.

	04-04-2004 04:11									#36
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Good point. I concede, sir, to your formidable argument.

	04-04-2004 04:14									#37
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quote: ok, I've now officially changed my avatar.

Nice avatar, If I do say so .

	04-04-2004 04:16									#38
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Just to put the boot in, let's look at the last 20 or so Conn Smythe trophy winners.

2003 Jean-Sebastien Giguere - Anaheim Mighty Ducks
2002 Nicklas Lidstrom - Detroit Red Wings
2001 Patrick Roy - Colorado Avalanche
2000 Scott Stevens New Jersey Devils
1999 Joe Nieuwendyk Dallas Stars
1998 Steve Yzerman Detroit Red Wings
1997 Mike Vernon Detroit Red Wings
1996 Joe Sakic Colorado Avalanche
1995 Claude Lemieux New Jersey Devils
1994 Brian Leetch New York Rangers
1993 Patrick Roy Montreal Canadiens
1992 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh Penguins
1991 Mario Lemieux Pittsburgh Penguins
1990 Bill Ranford Edmonton Oilers
1989 Al MacInnis Calgary Flames
1988 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1987 Ron Hextall* Philadelphia Flyers
1986 Patrick Roy Montreal Canadiens
1985 Wayne Gretzky Edmonton Oilers
1984 Mark Messier Edmonton Oilers

Apart from the obvious phenoms of Messier, Gretzky, and Roy (two of whom had been to the final before) the only players who weren't experienced playoff veterans when they won it were Sakic in 1996 and Giguere in 2003 (who lost). (MacInnis had already lost in a final before he won his)

So that's two players (Roy and Sakic) who weren't really experienced playoff veterans who won playoff MVP in the last 20 years. That seems a pretty conclusive statistic to me.

Last edited by Agathon on 04-04-2004 at 04:24

	04-04-2004 04:16									#39
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It is, IMH (and completely unbaised) O, the coolest logo in the history of professional sports.

	04-04-2004 04:17									#40
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quote: Originally posted by joncha Good point. I concede, sir, to your formidable argument.

It's not an argument, it's just stating the blindingly obvious.

Another obvious fact: if Belfour is injured and Trevor Kidd is in goal, the Leafs cannot win - it is a mathematical certainty.

	04-04-2004 04:20									#41
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Can't argue with the facts. Cloutier is teh sux.

	04-04-2004 04:23									#42
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So do you think that veteran experience is required to win a cup?

	04-04-2004 04:24									#43
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quote: if Belfour is injured and Trevor Kidd is in goal, the Leafs cannot win - it is a mathematical certainty.

Well that has nothing to do with veteran leadership, it has to do with the fact that Kidd sucks .

	04-04-2004 04:26									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: if Belfour is injured and Trevor Kidd is in goal, the Leafs cannot win - it is a mathematical certainty. Well that has nothing to do with veteran leadership, it has to do with the fact that Kidd sucks .

Of course, having a crap goalie will doom a team to failure.

What's your view on the veteran thing. I mean the last two winning Devils teams have been poster boys for that.

	04-04-2004 04:36									#45
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quote: What's your view on the veteran thing.

Well it definetly helps. It's not exclusive though. Every once in a while a team without experience will make it through (like Anaheim last year). More often than not, the team with the experience in the playoffs will go far.

Though, I think there is a certain 'point' (which I can't really place) where the veteran leadership of teams equal out. For example, even though the Devils may have more playoff experience (in terms of games) than Colorado, I don't think that means the Devils will necessarily go farther. Basically, I think there is an 'experience floor'.

	04-04-2004 04:40									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What's your view on the veteran thing. Well it definetly helps. It's not exclusive though. Every once in a while a team without experience will make it through (like Anaheim last year). More often than not, the team with the experience in the playoffs will go far.

In terms of actually winning it is a slam dunk. Look at the last ten winners back to 1994 and all of the last five.

quote: Though, I think there is a certain 'point' (which I can't really place) where the veteran leadership of teams equal out. For example, even though the Devils may have more playoff experience (in terms of games) than Colorado, I don't think that means the Devils will necessarily go farther. Basically, I think there is an 'experience floor'.

I think you are right. You need some, but as long as you have enough, more is not necessarily better.

	04-04-2004 04:44									#47
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quote: In terms of actually winning it is a slam dunk.

Winning the big prize, yes, but not always about playoff success. I mean, a team can make it to the Conference Championships and have it be considered a great playoffs. Anaheim last year had a successful playoffs.

	04-04-2004 04:49									#48
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Sure, but winning is everything.

	04-04-2004 04:51									#49
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Well yes... but I was trying to be nice to fans of Toronto, like yourself .

	04-04-2004 04:52									#50
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But winning is everything for us, that's why anything less than a Cup leads to calls for the coach's head.

	04-04-2004 04:54									#51
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Well yes... which means you've had nothing to cheer about since '67 .

	04-04-2004 04:57									#52
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Yeah, but the Leafs had Harold Ballard as owner for much of that time. Now, for the first time in 30 years, we finally have ownership that is prepared to spend money to get the right players.

	04-04-2004 05:02									#53
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Well you can keep saying that if it'll make you feel better .

Money isn't everything.

	04-04-2004 05:26									#54
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It is when the owner keeps trading away all the good players.

	04-04-2004 05:28									#55
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That's just incompetence .

	04-04-2004 05:29									#56
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Well, obviously... we are talking about the leafs.

	04-04-2004 06:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui That's just incompetence .

No he was quite rational. He knew that he'd sell out even if he fielded a team of garden gnomes, so he basically did.

	04-04-2004 06:12									#58
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Well, I'm going out for the night, but before I do, I just have to say:

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OILERS! WHOOOOOOOOO!!!

I have faith.







YEAH!

	04-04-2004 06:13									#59
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HAHAHAHA

It's always nice to have a dream.

	04-04-2004 06:22									#60
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Canucks vs Flames, first round.

Who will win, and by how much?