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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I expect better annalogies from you.
Sorry, BUT US forces are there mainly to hunt AQ and the Taliban, not to provide security nationwide. There are about 12,000 US troops in afghanistan, with most security provided by the nacent Afghan army, OR by local militias.
We have 100,000 troops in Iraq-a HUGE difference. |
well it seems that the Taliban activity is the principle threat to the govt in Afghanistan, not foot patrols in Bamiyan province. Besides, there is still an ISAF force in Kabul, and there is talk of expanding it to other cities. Do you really think the militias provide "security"?
I fail to see your point - the new Iraqi regime will (for the time being) be heavily reliant for security on foreign forces not under its direct control - and this means what, exactly? That its thereby illegitimate???? I think that depends on the reaction of Iraqis, and on the reaction of the international community. That we shouldnt "stay the course" Why??? Cause it smells like Viet Nam???? John Kerry, WHO SERVED IN VIET NAM, sees that it is essential to stay the course.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
quote:
It seems that Sistani may be willing to accept a transitional govt that ISNT too democractic, since such a govt would be more explicitly PROVISIONAL, and would be less likely to make permanent laws. In any case that is being discussed currently. Of coruse the negotiations are difficult - this is a complex political situation. I fail to see how this relates to the point of staying the course. |
Any government unable to make permanent laws would be one unable to set a permanent scheme for continued US precense, so at some point, it might come up to Iraqi voters to decide how the US army will operate in Iraq, and they might not "stay the course". |
I dont think any govt anywhere implements "permanent schemes" for the presence of foreign forces - such status of forces agreements are always time limited, and subject to revocation by the host govt. Thats certainly legally the case in Germany, Japan, and S Korea, and in fact US forces left the Phillipines when the democratically govt insisted on it.
Its certainly possible that some future elected Iraqi govt may choose to dispense with US forces. The current govt of the Phillipines, for example, uses its own forecs to fight AQ terrorists, and has requested only training help from the US. I dont think the original poster was referring to IRaq staying the course, but to the US doing so. Certainly there is no immediate prospect of democratic forces in Iraq taking full responsibility for their own security.
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Ogie Oglethorpe
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Marietta, GA
Dec 1999
time: 05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
I guess I don't know or recall. |
Pssst Fun....
quote:
Personal Information
Born - 1944.
Marital Status - Unknown.
Education - Mathematics (Chicago University and MIT).
Personal History
Dr. Ahmad Chalabi is a Shi'a Muslim. He is the son of a wealthy banking family whose grandfather, father and brother held prominent posts in Iraqi governments until Saddam Hussein's Baath Party seized power in 1968. He has not lived in Iraq since 1956, apart from a period organizing resistance in the Kurdish north in the mid-1990s. Chalabi was a math professor at the American University in Beirut until 1977. His main political support came from the US Congress, the Pentagon and parts of the CIA. The US State Department does not trust him and has raised questions about Iraqi National Congress's accounting practices. In 1995 he organized an uprising in the Northern Iraq, which was called off by the CIA at the crucial moment, and which subsequently led to the deaths of thousands of INC members. A highly controversial figure, he is charismatic and determined, though many also regard him as domineering. Since he left Jordan, Chalabi has resided in London and he is now a British citizen.
Political Activity
Dr. Ahmad Chalabi was leader of Iraqi National Congress until April of 1999, when he was demoted to the rank of an ordinary member. A collective leadership of seven persons, each representing one of the main opposition groups, was established in his place. He was the chairman of the Petra Bank in Jordan and was eventually convicted (in his absence) of fraud by a Jordanian court. He maintains he is innocent and says the Iraqi government trumped up the accusations.
Additional Information
Dr. Ahmad Chalabi has little support from leaders of the various Iraqi exile groups, or from Iraqis living in Iraq. The Arab governments in the Persian Gulf region have told the administration that they would not allow Chalabi to run a liberation army from their soil, even in an operation mounted with U.S. help. The ruling Sunnis of Saudi Arabia distrust Chalabi in part because he is Shi'a, a branch of Islam whose adherents make up just over half of Iraq's 22 million inhabitants. The Kuwaitis do not believe he could inspire a successful revolt and refuse to give him a staging area. Jordan would put him in jail were he to return because of the banking fraud. And on the other side of Iraq, Turkey wants nothing to do with Chalabi or his plan.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
well it seems that the Taliban activity is the principle threat to the govt in Afghanistan, not foot patrols in Bamiyan province. Besides, there is still an ISAF force in Kabul, and there is talk of expanding it to other cities. Do you really think the militias provide "security"? |
Yes, and that international forces is under a UN mandate-something we may need in Iraq as well. And militias do provide security, as i making sure only one group of people have guns and thus there is no shooting going on.
quote:
I fail to see your point - the new Iraqi regime will (for the time being) be heavily reliant for security on foreign forces not under its direct control - and this means what, exactly? That its thereby illegitimate???? I think that depends on the reaction of Iraqis, and on the reaction of the international community. That we shouldnt "stay the course" Why??? Cause it smells like Viet Nam???? John Kerry, WHO SERVED IN VIET NAM, sees that it is essential to stay the course. |
Once control goes back to Iraqis, it will depend only on iraqis, not the international community. Interestingly enough, Afghanistan has yet to have elections- I wonder how long it will be in Iraq. nd what's with the rest of the post? is poly finally getting to you?
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:35
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Warrant issued for Shiite cleric; Iraq fighting continues
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Hamza Hendawi
April 5, 2004 | BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- An Iraqi judge has issued a murder arrest warrant for a radical Shiite Muslim cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr, for the slaying of another Shiite leader shortly after the U.S.-led invasion of the country, coalition officials said Monday.
Meanwhile, U.S. troops on Monday sealed off the city of Fallujah west of Baghdad, where some 1,200 Marines and two battalions of Iraqi security forces were poised to launch an operation aimed at pacifying the city, one of the most violent places in the Sunni Triangle.
Explosions and gunfire could be heard coming from the center of the city. Streets on the outskirts were largely deserted.
The announcement of the warrant came a day after violent clashes between militiamen loyal to al-Sadr that killed 52 Iraqis, eight U.S. soldiers and a Salvadoran soldier -- some of the worst gunbattles since the ouster of Saddam Hussein.
President Bush said he was committed to the June 30 deadline for transferring power in Iraq and won't be deterred by violence and an armed Shiite revolt against the U.S.-led occupation. "The deadline remains firm," Bush said.
Bush also criticized al-Sadr as "one person that is deciding that rather than allowing democracy to flourish, he's going to exercise force. We just can't let it stand."
Coalition spokesman Dan Senor, who announced the warrant, would not say when al-Sadr would be detained. "There'll be no advance warning," he said.
Since the violence, al-Sadr has been holed up in a mosque in the city of Kufa, south of Baghdad, surrounded by armed supporters.
The arrest warrant had been issued several months ago, Senor said, refusing to say why al-Sadr had not been arrested earlier or why its existence was only announced Monday, one day after the al-Sadr-inspired violence.
Al-Sadr is accused in the slaying of Abdel-Majid al-Khoei, a rival Shiite cleric who was stabbed to death by a mob at a Shiite shrine in the city of Najaf in April 2003.
A total of 25 arrest warrants have been issued in the case, and 13 suspects have been taken into custody. Sunday's violence in Baghdad and other cities was sparked by the arrest last week of Mustafa al-Yacoubi, a senior aide to al-Sadr, on one of the warrants.
L. Paul Bremer, the top U.S. administrator in Iraq, declared al-Sadr an "outlaw" who threatens Iraq's security.
The fiercest battle took place Sunday in Sadr City, Baghdad's largest Shiite neighborhood, where black-garbed Shiite militiamen loyal to cleric Muqtada al-Sadr fired from rooftops and behind buildings at U.S. troops, killing the eight Americans. At least 30 Iraqis were killed and more than 110 wounded, doctors said.
Violence broke out Monday in another Shiite neighborhood of the capital, al-Shoala, where members of al-Sadr's "Al-Mahdi Army" militia clashed with a U.S. patrol. An American armored vehicle was seen burning and a U.S. helicopter hovered overhead.
Militiamen also clashed with British troops in two southern cities, and three Iraqis were killed, witnesses said, while in several cities al-Sadr followers held sit-in protests, controlled the streets and held police stations.
A Marine was killed Monday in the Fallujah area, the military said, without providing further details. The death -- along with killings of U.S. soldiers in two northern cities and in Sunday's violence -- brought the U.S. death toll in Iraq to at least 613 since the war on Iraq began a year ago.
U.S. commanders have been vowing a massive response after insurgents killed four American security contractors in the city, west of Baghdad, on Wednesday. Residents dragged the Americans' bodies through the streets, hanging two charred corpses from a bridge in horrifying scenes that showed the depth of anti-U.S. sentiment in the city.
The insurgency that has plagued U.S. troops in Iraq for months has been led by Sunni Muslims. But Sunday's clashes in Baghdad and three other cities threatened to open a dangerous new front: a confrontation with Iraq's powerful Shiite Muslim majority, which has until now largely avoided violence with the Americans.
Al-Sadr fiercely opposes the U.S. occupation, but he has not had widespread support among Shiites, who see him as too young, too radical and too inexperienced to lead.
The large protests Sunday in Baghdad, Najaf, Nasiriyah and Amarah -- sparked by the arrest of an aide to al-Sadr -- were a show of force by his militia. But U.S. officials said they believe his appeal among the Shiite public remained limited.
The al-Mahdi Army was out in force Monday in several southern Iraqi cities. In Basra, Shiites who seized the governor's office traded fire with British troops. One Iraqi was killed, al-Sadr's office in the city said.
In the nearby city of Amarah, militiamen marched in the streets, clashing with British troops near the governor's office. Two Iraqis were killed in the exchange of the fire, witnesses said.
Gunmen also held sway in the holy city of Najaf, prompting police to flee their stations, said the Spanish Defense Ministry, whose troops control the region. Witnesses said the police returned later.
The Spanish bases in Diwaniya and Najaf came under sporadic mortar fire overnight but there were no injuries or material damage, the ministry said.
Al-Sadr's main support is among young seminary students and many impoverished Shiites, devoted to him because of his anti-U.S. stance and the memory of his father, a Shiite religious leader gunned down by suspected Saddam agents in 1999.
Al-Sadr has demanded an immediate U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, but the cleric's political program has often been unclear. He has repeatedly said that he does not seek political power, but wants an "honest and responsible" government.
The latest violence suggests that al-Sadr wants to raise the profile of his movement at a time when other ethnic and religious groups in Iraq are jockeying for position ahead of the transfer of power to Iraqis.
Sunday evening, U.S. troops moved into Sadr City -- named after Muqtada's father -- after militiamen ambushed a U.S. patrol in the neighborhood, said Maj. Gen. Martin Dempsey, commander of the Army's 1st Armored Division.
More troops streamed in -- up to 1,000 at one point -- fighting sporadic gunbattles with more than 500 militiamen, Dempsey said. The fighting ended after a column of tanks moved in.
During the fighting, police evacuated three stations, which Mahdi Army militiamen then seized, U.S. officials said. They were later forced out by U.S. troops, they added.
Monday morning, U.S. tanks were parked in one of the neighborhood's main markets. Many stalls in the market were burned out, and buildings were pockmarked with bullet holes.
The other main fighting Sunday came outside Najaf, where militiamen opened fire on the base of Spanish troops, sparking a battle that lasted several hours. A Salvadoran soldier and 22 Iraqis were killed, Spanish and Iraqi officials said.
Al-Sadr supporters also were angered by the closure of his weekly newspaper by U.S. officials, who accused it of inciting violence.
In other developments:
-- U.N. envoy Lakhdar Brahimi met with members of Iraq's Governing Council as he launched a mission to help in the transition to an interim government after sovereignty is handed back to Iraqis on June 30.
-- A suicide attacker detonated a bomb-laden vehicle as he tried to enter a U.S. base in the northern city of Kirkuk, killing one U.S. soldier and wounding six Americans and six Iraqis, the military said. A roadside bomb, meanwhile, killed a U.S. soldier in the city of Mosul.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
The current situation is transiatory-the uptick in violence in the last couple of months underlies deeper problems that trancend the events of the day, and this is why the amdin. needs to deal with this, and the question of what sort of mandate US forces will have post June 30 matters a great deal. |
The original poster did not , IIUC, question that the admin needs to deal with the political questions in Iraq. He did address his fear (shared by many, i might add) of another Mogadishu.
as for the latest uptick underlying deeper problems, thats not at all clear. A case could be made the Coalition is finally dealing with problems that were allowed to fester - the virtual cession of Fallujah to the insurgents, and the slowly growing influence of Al Sadr, and now they will be dealt with. There are other longer term problems to be sure - the real problems of balancing Sunni/Kurdish minority rights with Majoirty rule as advocated by Sistani and others - but I think it is a mistake to identify the Fallujah insurgents with the larger concerns of the Sunni minority which is participating in the political process, or to conflate Al Sadr and his concerns with Sistani and his concerns. Sistani wants to insure that Majority rule takes place, and that minority rights are not used to check the rightful role of the Iraqi Shiites. Sadr apparently despise Western Democracy in all its forms and want a Shiite Theocracy by force.
The tendency to conflate Sadr with Sistani, on the one hand, and the Sunni insurgency with the entire Sunni Arab community, is widespread in the US and leads to counter productive solutions - on the right a call for escalation and harsher tactics without discrimination, and on the left a call for US disengagement. Clarifying these distinction is thus an important part of winning this war, as it opens up the political space for the US to pursue appopriate solutions, which involve using forces against irreconcilable elements, while negotiating a politcal solution with the help of other elements, and with the help of the UN.
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05-04-2004 21:14
hey, we put him in power once, we can do it again.
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