05-04-2004 20:02									#1
	The US must stay the course in Iraq Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Obviously, the violence and deaths are tragic and very sad.

But if we back down, we send a signal to all would-be aggressors that the US is not willing to fight and die for what it believes in.

If that would be the case, then we have already lost because it means that any would-be enemy can just come and kick us around and get their way.

In Iraq, we have two sides that want to take over control of the government. We have radical shiites that want power and we have baathist militants that want power. They think that if they hurt us enough, that we will withdraw and then they can fight it out in a civl war and take over the country all to themselves.

We have to win. We have to stay tough no matter how many lives we lose. We have to crush the militants or terrorists or whomever wishes us harm, until they surrender and Iraq can live in peace.

We have to win because if we don't, we send a signal to all would-be enemies that the US is weak and can be kicked around at ease.

	05-04-2004 20:06									#2
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I dont think the US should stay in to prove a point to terrorists, since by staying in, it strengthens the terrorist cause. However, any hope for the Iraqis lies in there being some outside assistance, and while I would prefer that to be the UN, the USA is a preferable alternative to Al Qaeda.

	05-04-2004 20:08									#3
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What course? You do realize the amdin. plans to turn over soverignty on june 31 to the interim Iraqi government, and as of Today, they have yet to work out what powers the US will hav in Iraq, under what arrengement US troops will function, specially since it is highly unlikely Iraq's own army or police forces will be ready in time.....

Unless you think the country can be pacified in the next 3 months finally......

	05-04-2004 20:09									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy the USA is a preferable alternative to Al Qaeda.

Wow -- at least you can concede this point.

	05-04-2004 20:11									#5
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Someone needs to stay in order to provide the necessary stability.

The $64000 question is who has the most politcal will to do so. The US under Bush, the US under Kerry, or the UN?


Scary as the thought may be Bush has nothing to lose once achieving a second term, hence it most likely that he would stay the course IMO.

'course that means a whole lot of other things I don't like as well.


Kang or Kodos?

	05-04-2004 20:12									#6
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you know
25 years ago exactely the same things were said about vietnam...

now, did the commies kick your balls afterwards ?

the only reason you have to stay is that if you leave now you will have created the situation which this little war was to solve in the first place : a breeding ground for terrorists....

	05-04-2004 20:12									#7
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what course?

quote: You do realize the amdin. plans to turn over soverignty on june 31 to the interim Iraqi government, and as of Today, they have yet to work out what powers the US will hav in Iraq, under what arrengement US troops will function, specially since it is highly unlikely Iraq's own army or police forces will be ready in time

	05-04-2004 20:12									#8
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quote: Wow -- at least you can concede this point.

There's always one

	05-04-2004 20:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis you know 25 years ago exactely the same things were said about vietnam... now, did the commies kick your balls afterwards ? the only reason you have to stay is that if you leave now you will have created the situation which this little war was to solve in the first place : a breeding ground for terrorists....

One of the reasons why we lost the Vietnam War was because some of the higher military leaders and too many officials in the Johnson administration were stuck in the "conventional warfare" thought mode. They wanted to use air bombings and increase American ground troops in Vietnam to the point of overkill, while neglecting the nation-building aspect that would have increased South Vietnamese support for their own government.

Of course, South Vietnam's government was corrupt and repressive in its own right, so that was another reason for our loss. Why would the South Vietnamese, in their eyes, have any good reason to fight for their lives for a government that was dysfunctional?


I doubt we will make the same mistakes in Iraq.

	05-04-2004 20:18									#10
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The June deadline was a joke, was never going to happen. This is still a war and there are armed militia that need to be destroyed. Trying to play nicey nice with these animals doesn't work, you have to lower yourself to their playing level and destroy them at their game.
The leaders in Falluja are saying that any foreigner in Falluja is fair game, so be it, then they are too. This Operation "Vigilant Resolve" is going to be a joke unless we take the hammer to this town. The residents will be nice while we are there and as soon as we leave four more bodies will show up. The residents need to understand their fellow buddies who are doing this crap need to stop, the responsibility lays with all of the Falluja people.

	05-04-2004 20:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun One of the reasons why we lost the Vietnam War was because some of the higher military leaders and too many officials in the Johnson administration were stuck in the "conventional warfare" thought mode. They wanted to use air bombings and increase American ground troops in Vietnam to the point of overkill, while neglecting the nation-building aspect that would have increased South Vietnamese support for their own government. Of course, South Vietnam's government was corrupt and repressive in its own right, so that was another reason for our loss. Why would the South Vietnamese, in their eyes, have any good reason to fight for their lives for a government that was dysfunctional? I doubt we will make the same mistakes in Iraq.

[devil's advocate]
But this is the gist of GePap's contined question "What course?"
[/devil's advocate]

	05-04-2004 20:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What course? You do realize the amdin. plans to turn over soverignty on june 31 to the interim Iraqi government, and as of Today, they have yet to work out what powers the US will hav in Iraq, under what arrengement US troops will function, specially since it is highly unlikely Iraq's own army or police forces will be ready in time..... Unless you think the country can be pacified in the next 3 months finally......

As we see with all the violence, the task is certainly not easy. But a peacedul democratic iraq is in the US and the region's best interests. An Iraq controlled by some anti-American group like Shiite radicals, terrorists or baathist militants is not in our interests nor the regions' interest.

The bottomline is that if we succeed, we turn Iraq into an ally, if we fail we turn Iraq into an enemy and we send the message to all anti-american forces that they can take over any country because we can be pushed around.

So, we must succeed. We must find a way to pacify Iraq and allow Iraq to become a stable democracy under Iraqi sovereignty.

	05-04-2004 20:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant The June deadline was a joke, was never going to happen. This is still a war and there are armed militia that need to be destroyed. Trying to play nicey nice with these animals doesn't work, you have to lower yourself to their playing level and destroy them at their game. The leaders in Falluja are saying that any foreigner in Falluja is fair game, so be it, then they are too. This Operation "Vigilant Resolve" is going to be a joke unless we take the hammer to this town. The residents will be nice while we are there and as soon as we leave four more bodies will show up. The residents need to understand their fellow buddies who are doing this crap need to stop, the responsibility lays with all of the Falluja people.

Agreed. To quote the civ2 military advisor, "Let's go bonk some heads, sir!"

	05-04-2004 20:22									#14
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has it ever occurred to you that the 'average iraqi' might not want or isn't ready for a democracy ? not by a longshot ?

so how long exactely are you going to stay then ? not that i want you to leave but it's just a question that i have

	05-04-2004 20:22									#15
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I'd prefer that we admit to ourselves that a 1 state solution will not work and just go with the 3 state solution.

	05-04-2004 20:23									#16
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I hoped that i never would have to say it but: ” I told you so!” This was unfortunately a expected outcome of the insane invasion of Iraq. The even more sad thing is that should the American forces and their allies leave now it would lead to an even more chaotic situation where different groups would fight each other for power. Biggest victims = innocent civilians. A scary thing is that when I was looking at some news channels from USA where they where interviewing them about what they thought about the war were that more and more Americans are against the war. The reason was that they didn’t think that the Iraqis appreciated what the Americans where doing for them. “Here we come the largest Christian force the earth ever have seen on a new crusade (not permitted by the pope however since he was against it as I recall) to free the (in large) Islamic state if Iraq and how do they thank us”? – was one of the remarks..

The best thing do is to keep the US soldiers and their allies but let it be led by UN as it should have been from the start. IF it would come to the point where a war was necessary. (which it never was!

	05-04-2004 20:24									#17
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quote: So, we must succeed. We must find a way to pacify Iraq and allow Iraq to become a stable democracy under Iraqi sovereignty.

We have failed to pacify Iraq in 12 months-now, as we plan to undergo a massive troop rotation, we are going to, with troops now green to the area, do in 3 months what we haven't done in 12, all while switching soverignty to Iraqis without Yet, about 4 months after the admin. announced the plan, no real steps taken to clarify the position of US troops and commanders in Iraq post June 31?

	05-04-2004 20:24									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun One of the reasons why we lost the Vietnam War was because some of the higher military leaders and too many officials in the Johnson administration were stuck in the "conventional warfare" thought mode. They wanted to use air bombings and increase American ground troops in Vietnam to the point of overkill, while neglecting the nation-building aspect that would have increased South Vietnamese support for their own government. Of course, South Vietnam's government was corrupt and repressive in its own right, so that was another reason for our loss. Why would the South Vietnamese, in their eyes, have any good reason to fight for their lives for a government that was dysfunctional? I doubt we will make the same mistakes in Iraq.

Ahmed Chalabi is banned from Jordan because of corruption and fraud charges. The whole INC told us hands down Saddam had stockpiles.... stockpiles of WMD's.

You think the INC is full of good people? Do you trust people who want power?

	05-04-2004 20:26									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant The June deadline was a joke, was never going to happen. This is still a war and there are armed militia that need to be destroyed. Trying to play nicey nice with these animals doesn't work, you have to lower yourself to their playing level and destroy them at their game. The leaders in Falluja are saying that any foreigner in Falluja is fair game, so be it, then they are too. This Operation "Vigilant Resolve" is going to be a joke unless we take the hammer to this town. The residents will be nice while we are there and as soon as we leave four more bodies will show up. The residents need to understand their fellow buddies who are doing this crap need to stop, the responsibility lays with all of the Falluja people.

The administration would have to admit it was wrong in order for them to move back the June 30 deadline...and since powerful parties in Iraq want us out of rule at that time (such as Sistani), sorry, but June 30 will go on as "planned", cause the last thing in the universe likely to happen is this administration back out of a plan they have publicized.

	05-04-2004 20:27									#20
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis has it ever occurred to you that the 'average iraqi' might not want or isn't ready for a democracy ? not by a longshot ?

Actually, thats not a bad question. Morevoer has it ever occurred to folk that most people don't want democracy as it poses too much individual responsibility.

	05-04-2004 20:27									#21
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Oh, and sorry for continuing to say June 31....

I mean June 30.

	05-04-2004 20:27									#22
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis has it ever occurred to you that the 'average iraqi' might not want or isn't ready for a democracy ? not by a longshot ? so how long exactely are you going to stay then ? not that i want you to leave but it's just a question that i have

BTW, our forces are still in Japan and Germany, now I don't think they need to be there anymore, but you asked how long. They need to be there until the ME changes their philosophy towards the West. That is a long time in coming but it has to be or the alternative is something nobody wants.

	05-04-2004 20:28									#23
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We broke it, We buy it. We'll be propping up that "new democratic" Iraq for years to come.

	05-04-2004 20:30									#24
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USA will not leave until they have finished what they came for! To insure US financial interests, oil, huge orders to other US companies etc etc…

	05-04-2004 20:31									#25
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The administration would have to admit it was wrong in order for them to move back the June 30 deadline...and since powerful parties in Iraq want us out of rule at that time (such as Sistani), sorry, but June 30 will go on as "planned", cause the last thing in the universe likely to happen is this administration back out of a plan they have publicized.

GePap,
Screw them, we are the power there, we leave now, there is a 3-way civil war, no power there can handle that, we have our hands full, they don't like it, lets end it, let them raise up arms and when they do we will hammer it. Until we can get a legitimate police force and military we need to play with a rough hand, that is all they understand. Once Iraq'a police force and military is in shape all we have to do is monitor them and stay in t he background.

	05-04-2004 20:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant BTW, our forces are still in Japan and Germany, now I don't think they need to be there anymore, but you asked how long. They need to be there until the ME changes their philosophy towards the West. That is a long time in coming but it has to be or the alternative is something nobody wants.

Since 1948 US forces had no part of internal security in germany, which had its own police, and then its own large army.-sicne 1952 ditto for Japan.

Notice how it took 3 years to had power back to the Germans, 7 for the Japanese.

I guess Iraq must be so much easier to do it in 18 months...

or maybe the admin. did not want to be in power in Iraq come election time? Nah, the Bush amdin. would never put the future of iraq in danger for purely political considerations!

	05-04-2004 20:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ambro2000 USA will not leave until they have finished what they came for! To insure US financial interests, oil, huge orders to other US companies etc etc…

I don't know where the hell you live but our gas prices are skyrocketing, I wish this was about oil, then maybe my gas prices would lower.

	05-04-2004 20:33									#28
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A democracy in Iraq won't last long. It's not a magic bullet, it is a political system with major flaws and failings, just like the one it replaced. Different cultures, religions etc are compatible with democracy to varying degrees. I suspect Iraq and the ME in general is not.

	05-04-2004 20:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Since 1948 US forces had no part of internal security in germany, which had its own police, and then its own large army.-sicne 1952 ditto for Japan. Notice how it took 3 years to had power back to the Germans, 7 for the Japanese. I guess Iraq must be so much easier to do it in 18 months... or maybe the admin. did not want to be in power in Iraq come election time? Nah, the Bush amdin. would never put the future of iraq in danger for purely political considerations!

We are one year into it, we literally crushed the militaries and people of Germany and Japan and unless we want to play that same game, which we can, then this will take a little longer, but hopefully fewer lives.

	05-04-2004 20:33									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Defiant I don't know where the hell you live but our gas prices are skyrocketing, I wish this was about oil, then maybe my gas prices would lower.

Not until we reinvest in additional refineries.