15-04-2004 08:25									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Did I mention that Kiwi veterans considered US soldiers to be, on the average, gutless cowards.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, a tad strong I dare say - I do know from several sources that the Aussies in Vietnam would hide from the Yanks as they went by and take detours to avoid concentrations of them. Their fieldcraft was considered poor and their trigger happiness made for friendly fire incidents.

quote: One guy said that as soon as the North Koreans turned up, your lot would pack it in and hightail it.

The rout being stopped by the 3 Battalion Royal Australian Regiment's heroic stand, along with the Canucks, at Kapyong.

http://www.awm.gov.au/korea/operati...ong/kapyong.htm

I love this quote.

quote: "Major O'Dowd then directed the radio operator to contact anyone. The American 1st Marine Division answered but their operator refused to believe who our operator was speaking for. Major O'Dowd took the phone and demanded to speak to the commanding officer. The general in charge of the [Marine] division came on the phone and told O'Dowd we didn't exist as we had been wiped out the night before. Major O'Dowd said, 'I've got news for you, we are still here and we are staying here.'" Private Patrick Knowles, 3 RAR, on the morning of 24 April 1951

Isn't first marines one of the formations in Iraq now?

	15-04-2004 13:12									#452
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Your story made no mention of US forces other than a call to the Marines at the end.

Anyway...

	15-04-2004 13:17									#453
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For those of you actually interested in the topic at hand and not a pissing match, here are the latest developments:

1) Sadr is seeing his time is up and is willing to disarm his militia. He will only do this however if the order comes from senior Muslim leaders. He is surround in Najaf and has nowhere to go

2) The UN surveyor in Iraq says the transitional government can still go forwad in June

3) The US has asked Iran to help diffuse the crisis and Iran has sent a delegation to help out

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

	15-04-2004 13:17									#454
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Begging to the Iranians?

	15-04-2004 13:22									#455
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begging, funny

Iranians are Shiites

75% of Iraqis are Shiites

duh

plus you can't complain about the US not including others but then complain when they do

hypocrite

	15-04-2004 13:23									#456
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Really? Don't you think it's funny that they have to go to one of the "Axis of Evil"?

Oh the irony....

	15-04-2004 13:32									#457
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They don't "have" to do anything

	15-04-2004 16:14									#458
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Stop trolling Aggie.

Give credit where it is due. It appears that they have made a difficult but correct decision if they are talking to Iran.

And credit to Ted S for seeing this as a good thing.

	15-04-2004 18:54									#459
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Lets hope there is a breakthorugh in Najaf- Now that Sadr has backed down becuase he saw little support from other Shia clerics, the US should back down form it's "kill or capture" statements and leave it to the Iraqis, specially the "kill" one.

	15-04-2004 19:26									#460
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He still needs to be captured and stand trial for previous arrest warrant issued for murder of Shia cleric. This is non-negotiable if we want the force of law to stand.

The kill thing should be up to the court.

	15-04-2004 19:35									#461
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe He still needs to be captured and stand trial for previous arrest warrant issued for murder of Shia cleric. This is non-negotiable if we want the force of law to stand.

The warrant supposedly was out for several months prior-if we refused to serve it prior to this time becuase possibly of some other inetrests, I fail to see why all of a sudden it is critical it be served. It would be better to wait for a handover of power so then it is the iraqi police taking him away.

	15-04-2004 19:47									#462
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Hmmm.... so by ignoring a problem for many months and having it bite us in the butt, we should similarly make the same mistake and allow it to fester and raise its ugly head another 2-3 months.

Two wrongs making a right ehh....

Now were you to say he must surrender to Iraqi police forces immediately that would be a different story. It would be a master stroke to have Sistani et. al. call for his surrender to Iraqi police forces.

	15-04-2004 20:13									#463
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Hmmm.... so by ignoring a problem for many months and having it bite us in the butt, we should similarly make the same mistake and allow it to fester and raise its ugly head another 2-3 months. Two wrongs making a right ehh....

The first wrong changed the situation enough to make serving the warrant now backed by US tanks a political mistake. The US should never be the one serving the warrant anyway-if an Iraqi judge issues it, it should be the Iraqi police serving it.

quote: Now were you to say he must surrender to Iraqi police forces immediately that would be a different story. It would be a master stroke to have Sistani et. al. call for his surrender to Iraqi police forces.

We captured Saddam 3 months ago-nothing has happened yet. We can wait for July to have the iraqi police come and get him. Political stability trumps all other concerns if the amdin. is hell bent on the June 30 deadline.

	15-04-2004 20:22									#464
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Political stability trumps all other concerns if the amdin. is hell bent on the June 30 deadline.

Agreed, which is the reason he should be taken into custody ASAP by Iraqi police.

Unless of course you subscribe to the theory that he is so marginalized as to no longer be a security threat now or within the next 2-3 months.

	15-04-2004 20:29									#465
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Two things happened with Sadr- his actions garnered him the sort of attention from ther high leadership he porbalby always craved (like getting to meet with the sons of all the Grand Ayatollahs and neogtiators coming all the way from Iran), and he also saw the highr ps would not back him, so that long run he would not succeed.

How can the US serve the warrant? Sadr will probably get to stay in Najaf unless the Clerics force him out, and the US would be monumentally stupid to enter Najaf in force trying to get him.

My guess is that some sort of surrender to the Clerics by Sadr will happen. But not a turnover into US hands, or the police.

	15-04-2004 21:06									#466
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Agathon produced a nice little chronology of you not winning Btw, Agagthon you left off Beirut and Somalia. More disasters.

Beirut was Reagan's gutlessness, Somalia was a waste of time, but we stacked asses in Mogadishu, and the Marines in UNITAF shut down the warlord bullshit entirely. We just didn't see a national interest worth keeping 20,000 Marines in a useless shithole to help the UN do it's job for once.

	15-04-2004 21:10									#467
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Don't change the subject. And I'll have you know that tea drinking is a secret weapon - calms you down, makes you cool. Whereas coffee hypes you up.

Would have been nice if they'd brought some of that tea 18km up the road to the chaps from the Red Devils and the Polish Airborne Brigade.

	15-04-2004 21:12									#468
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We captured Saddam 3 months ago-nothing has happened yet. We can wait for July to have the iraqi police come and get him. Political stability trumps all other concerns if the amdin. is hell bent on the June 30 deadline.

Saddam was known to be hiding in a hole, and had no personal following to speak of - everyone was looking for their own agendas, not his.

al Sadr's not quite down to that level of marginalization.

	15-04-2004 21:28									#469
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Yesd-meaning that if we go in to get him or keep makign threats and don't let the Shiites clean tehir own house, it becomes us 9the US) versus the Shiite leadership instead of us vs Sadr. And that means less political stability.

	15-04-2004 21:30									#470
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Seems to me that was the intent of the first 6 month "no touch Sadr let the Shiite work it out themselves policy".

	15-04-2004 21:36									#471
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You mean the last 12 months.

Our not having enough forces to secure the country let him build up a following. After he had that, it simply has become a political liability for the US to arrest him on behlf of a government with no legitimacy, whcih sadly is what we have, becuase then he becomes a "political prisoner", and we would just be holding him until a real Iraqi trial could be set up.

Killing him is even far more stupid.

	16-04-2004 04:44									#472
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Beirut was Reagan's gutlessness, Somalia was a waste of time, but we stacked asses in Mogadishu, and the Marines in UNITAF shut down the warlord bullshit entirely. We just didn't see a national interest worth keeping 20,000 Marines in a useless shithole to help the UN do it's job for once.

As opposed to keeping 130,000 in another useless shithole.

	16-04-2004 05:01									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse As opposed to keeping 130,000 in another useless shithole.

This is a useful shithole - it's got oil.

	16-04-2004 05:25									#474
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You mean like when Julian Bond forced a river crossing (at over 50% casualties) to take the bridge over Nijmegen so Brit tankers could cross and then find a nice place to brew their afternoon tea while the Red Devils and Polish Airborne Brigade were being overrun just 18 km up the road?

The fact an unnoticed German Panzer Division was camped around the last bridge refitting might have had something to do with it too

	16-04-2004 05:32									#475
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According to the various news agencies the political situation is generally regarded as more important than the situation on the ground. If anyone have any other indication as to what is happening, let it be known. My impression:

The intial attacks were described by Us sources as well-coordinated and professional.

Presumably the insurgents were willing to accept a 10-1 killing ratio - this according to US command. However when the 30-80 dead mercenaries are added to the 88 official dead US soldiers in April so far, and compared with 600-1000 plus dead insurgents that would give a very rough 5-1 kill ratio estimate. The real ratio might be nearer to 3-1 since many of the insurgents may be civilians - this according to Arab news.

How many combat troops is available to the coalition? Well a wild guess is 40.000 US plus 5.000 'private contractors'. The rest is logistics, guard duty, security, staff, and other support roles. UK and others will not see any combat. The number of insurgents is probably limitless.

Supply situation. The road from Baghdad to Falluja is presumably cut off. On the strategic level emergency supplies of humvees originally destined for Israel have been redirected to Iraq, indicationg some degree of ad hoc flexibility. Halliburton have suspended their convoys supplying US troops. Wounded marines have complained of lack of ammunition. Us command have described the roads as 'yellow', as opposed to 'green', meaning clear, and 'red' meaning closed.

It is unclear how the situation is further South. But the coalition troops are keeping to their bases.

Semi-official. British commanders have critizised the Americans for being ham-fisted in their approach. Saying that laying down artillery barrages in civilian areas will not do any good.

Geneva convention has been breached in several instances, and no entity have as yet pronounced their opinion on the legal status of the levée en masse of the Iraqi, or the role of the private contractors.

Near Falluja 2.500 marines are poised in a stand-off. Closing in on Najaf is 25.000 US troops.

It should be noted that Islamic agencies have claimed higher losses regarding the US, but have not denied own losses.

	16-04-2004 06:00									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The fact an unnoticed German Panzer Division was camped around the last bridge refitting might have had something to do with it too

Actually, the rather shattered and tank light remnants of a division which was pulled into ol' Monty's sector to refit. Certainly nothing that would handle competent allied armor in the strength present within XXX Corps.

	16-04-2004 06:12									#477
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I don't disagree with you on that at all. It was noted at the time that XXX corps lacked fighting spirit and suffered only 17 casualties in their "drive" to the bridges, stopping whenever they came under fire. Hmmmm.......!!!!!

Horrocks was criticised about it.

But the crucial thing was the paras ran out of tea and of course immediately surrendered because there was nothing to fight for anymore.

Those shatttered remnants you talk about were stronger than that. They had tanks and the paras had little effective anti tank resources.

	16-04-2004 07:59									#478
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat This is a useful shithole - it's got oil.

I never thought I'd see the day that I would include MTG in my sig line.

	16-04-2004 08:17									#479
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Two things happened with Sadr- his actions garnered him the sort of attention from ther high leadership he porbalby always craved (like getting to meet with the sons of all the Grand Ayatollahs and neogtiators coming all the way from Iran), and he also saw the highr ps would not back him, so that long run he would not succeed. How can the US serve the warrant? Sadr will probably get to stay in Najaf unless the Clerics force him out, and the US would be monumentally stupid to enter Najaf in force trying to get him. My guess is that some sort of surrender to the Clerics by Sadr will happen. But not a turnover into US hands, or the police.

And yet they just executed an Iranian hostage. That's a heck of a way to impress a putative ally! Does he belong to some obscure Shiite sect that considers Shiites to be their natural enemies?

	16-04-2004 08:23									#480
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Two things happened with Sadr- his actions garnered him the sort of attention from ther high leadership he porbalby always craved (like getting to meet with the sons of all the Grand Ayatollahs and neogtiators coming all the way from Iran), and he also saw the highr ps would not back him, so that long run he would not succeed.

Spot on.

I don't have the exact quote but he went public trying to ally himself with Sistani. It basically went, "look at me, I'm the man! Please please notice me and accept me Sistani!"

So he did get the attention he wanted but at the same time the clerics aren't going to back him.

Honestly he nothing more than a street thug so it's a shame to see so many people following him as a potential leader. He is pretty much the Al Capone wannabe of Iraq.