07-04-2004 10:20									#1
	Where should we offer to relocate CGN? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This is the discussion thread prior to polling this question.

As the war seems to be turning against CGN, we have begun discussing offering them a city on our continent for refuge. In the hopes of eventually getting there UN vote as a possible way for us to reach victory.

Where should that city be?

Two ideas were discussed in chat and there were VERY Vocal arguements for both areas.

There could also be more areas to discuss so please express your opinions here pre-poll.

The two areas discussed were:

1. desert tile between Lakeview and Elucidium



2. Somewhere on the NE uninhabited pennisula

Last edited by conmcb25 on 07-04-2004 at 23:50

	07-04-2004 10:31									#2
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You forgot to mention that some of you were arguing on settling on the as-yet-undiscovered island or islands NW of our continent (along the mysterious sea route).

Bascially in the chat, Togas, Trip, Arnelos and myself favored the desert spot between Lakeview and Elucidum. Why? Because it is by far the safest place where GWT cannot get to them, even after getting Navigation (if they do then it's a full-scale invasion of us). And the important thing is to ensure CGNs survival for the possible UN vote that it implies, obviously CGN's propping to a productive lesser nation is a possibility though we can't expect much from them.

If we settler somewhere on the NE uninhabited penninsula it will basically be a coastal site, one which will be vulnerable to a GWT invasion. Wherever we decide to relocate CGN, it should NOT be on a coast, or at least not on such a vulnerable one.

As for settling on the hypothetical islands NW of us, it is definitely a possibility and depending on the size of them, could offer CGN some growth. However:

1) we don't know if those islands exist

2) we don't know the quality of the land, or the size

3) we don't know how vulnerable they can be to a GWT invasion.

4) it wil likely have to be settled by Apolyton settlers and later gifted, and it will need most likely a unit shield to prevent a GWT invasion until Marines.

Given that we can very much expect CGN's demise within the next 15 turns, I don't think it is prudent to relocate them to such a risky place when GWT might very well be beelining towards Navigation and can invade that island and use it as a jumping off point against us.

I strongly suggest we relocate CGN to the desert until their survival is assured and unitl we can determine the safety of having them in the islands, if we find them.

-MZ

	07-04-2004 10:43									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen You forgot to mention that some of you were arguing on settling on the as-yet-undiscovered island or islands NW of our continent (along the mysterious sea route).

You were so adamently against banking on that assumption that I decided to leave it out. Something about it being a fantasy or something



But lets focas on the discussion at hand shalll we?

	07-04-2004 10:47									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Poor CGN.... stuck on a desert or on some plains separated from anywhere else (and fresh water) by a Mountain range...

I really hope we find another island up north for them.

	07-04-2004 10:57									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

At least, until they get Astro and then Nav, I really doubt that GWT is going to take the risk of losing 1/2 to 3/4 of their army to pot luck on a mass crossing. So, for now, the north is very safe.

As for the possible islands, we will see what we can see in about 11 turns, because I'll have a galley ready, out of Incensity, to go exploring. We just need to get 2 Knights to go with it, to quickly scout out any land that is found.

E_T

	07-04-2004 17:59									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If GWT do what I think they will do, we might be in a fight for our lives in the not-too-distant future.

Navigation really isn't THAT hard to get to. They have a massive army, they're behind in tech, and we are clearly a rising star (with our GA looming). I think they will try and hit us hard while they still have the advantage, which means ASAP.

Even if we manage to block our coastline (a mobile blockade + picket ships should be able to do the job w/o needing a Gathering Storm-esque total seawall), there is CFC to worry about.

A coastal CGN city actually wouldn't be a security risk until Marines show up. We would have to set up a seawall up in the far north anyway to prevent a landing, and a CGN city would actually save us at least 1 tile (or more, if they have some units).

-Arrian

	07-04-2004 19:29									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Another very good reason not to put it on that desert tile (site #19), is the cultural difference between us.

See General Overall City Placement Plan #1 for locations

- they are just over 4 times our total culture.
- When that city's borders expand from their palace being there, it will inpact Site #20, Euclidium Novem and site #21.
- What happens if our nation is cut into 2, with our middle cities culturally defecting to CGN.
- And being the Devil's Advocate here, what if they make a deal with GWT and hit us from the inside while we are defending from an outside attack?

The Rememberance site (site #11) first off allows their cultural borders to expand without any impact to us.

To say that we won't be able to defend them in the north is a gut reaction to ghosts, IMHO. Granted, GWT has a very large army, but then, we will also have one. And done in such a way that they won;t know what is happening until it's too late.

MoI E_T

	07-04-2004 22:24									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

E-T they can just not take the citys when they want to flip.

	07-04-2004 22:35									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

What about 'Eye' or 'Kanoala'? As both locations aren't in our "core" and we would be able to see a GWT invasion comming as we would block off the Bay via culture?

	07-04-2004 23:14									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MJW E-T they can just not take the citys when they want to flip.

True, but can we trust them enough not to?? Especially if they deside to backstab us. Not on my watch, As Far As I'm Concerned. Even though they are very much working with us, the nature of Demogames means that they could take an entirely different track than what we intend, especially when given a very poor site as that one.

I had only had a city placed there, just to get the extra trade from it (and to fill in the spaces). I don;t expect it to be doing very much over time, atleast not until RR's. At least, the northern city site has a much better potenial over time.

quote: Originally posted by Donegeal What about 'Eye' or 'Kanoala'? As both locations aren't in our "core" and we would be able to see a GWT invasion comming as we would block off the Bay via culture?

Although these cities aren't in our new Palace core, they are in our FP core. Plus, the same applies with cultural borders, with too many other cities being effected by their own culture.

One thing that you have to realize, when I had made the settlement plan, was that all of that land would be solely ours. We are way too late in this to redesign our plan, to take CGN into account.

MoI E_T

	07-04-2004 23:26									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by E_T One thing that you have to realize, when I had made the settlement plan, was that all of that land would be solely ours. We are way too late in this to redesign our plan, to take CGN into account.

This is E_T's real beef with my proposal. He doesn't want to have to make changes to his settlement plan.

We had a very long and heated argument about this in chat, and I'm not going to relive it here. MasterZen has stated my arguments in his post so I'll try to be short and blunt.

IMPORTANT:
CGN being safely tucked away and secured.
CGN staying alive to vote for us in the UN and to give us Free Techs at the next two ages.
Being able to adequately protect and watch our coasts without having to waste units on a wall of defenders for CGN.

NOT IMPORTANT:
E_T's precious settlement plans being marred by a desert city in a region where we didn't plan on putting a city.

We put them by the lake, in the middle of our nation and they are safe. No surprise invasions can take them out nor is their land a potential invasion zone that we cannot see (outside our borders), nor do we have to place a large # of units around them just to make sure they stay safe. Less worry. Less hastle. Less expense.

We can relocate them later if we find a suitable island.

They're not going to invade us. They're not going to culture flip our cities. They're not going to betray us and help GWT attack us or some other absolutely absurd idea.

We save their asses and offer this city as a temporary home to them until we find a more suitable location and/or are able to recapture part of their homeland and send them back.

--Togas

	07-04-2004 23:32									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok lets keep the arguement Civil OK?

All Im going to say right now is E_T's "precious" settlement plan is the thing thats going to win this game for us. IF the lets call it "inevitable" GWT invasion comes and it comes sooner than later, we are probably screwed anyway because we wont be rerady until way into our GA which is what 30 to 40 turns from now?

So the safety arguement is somewhat a moot point. We wont be able to keep CGN safe in the short term because we probably wont be able to keep ourselves safe.

GWT has had there FP for a long time and there Golden Age already. We are just getting our palaces straightened away and our GA is still a good chunk of time in the future. If they come soon, we wont be prepared, simple as that.

And my guess is there attack will be delayed, they are probably going to help GCA get rebuilt in the old CGN lands and then both come after us.

More point, counterpoint later, right now I have to work

But kets keep it civil ok guys

Last edited by conmcb25 on 07-04-2004 at 23:39

	07-04-2004 23:52									#13
	Tired of ads?

Would both be possible?

We transfer them to the north location first, so that their palace is there in case there is an island up north. Then we gift them the desert city to make sure a GWT attack on the north would not eliminate their civ. The downside, however, is one more settler would be required.

	08-04-2004 00:09									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The settlers for both cities are already in the works, so it doesn't require any more that we currently have planned.

As for helping them to settle any possible land in the NW, first we have to see what is there, help them draw up a settlement plan, and then help them to get it settled. I can likely be able to pull a settler or 2 from some very fast growing cities, when that time comes around and without putting some of our other plans into jepardy.

This also would, IMHO, require us to tell them what we want in the way of things for them to build. But that is still several turns in the future.

MoI E_T

	08-04-2004 00:13									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Would both be possible? We transfer them to the north location first, so that their palace is there in case there is an island up north. Then we gift them the desert city to make sure a GWT attack on the north would not eliminate their civ. The downside, however, is one more settler would be required.

Yes, if push comes to shove, and we find that we can't protect them (and us at that same time) then we can always look at that option AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

E_T

	08-04-2004 03:56									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Why dont we gift them the North.
Their first build will be a settler.

They move the settler to our core, and park it (fortify) on a mountain.

If GWT sneak attacks and takes the CGN city, they wont be destroyed, because they still have a settler left.

They can rebuild their capital in a safer place where we nominate ...or even just sit it out with a fortified settler.

They wont be eliminated from the game, while they have a settler alive. They dont need a capital.

	08-04-2004 04:21									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I like H_E's proposal.

	08-04-2004 04:25									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I support giving them a segment of the north. At just size 2 their capital can use the game and a mined plains for 5 SPT and 2 fpt. They can use that city to help produce something over time. Max size of 4 (pre-Harbor) generates 9 SPT, which isn't half-bad for a single city up there.

That having been said, we also need to look out for their security. H_E's suggestion for them to plant a Settler in the middle of nowhere isn't a bad idea.

With a ROP and a decent road network up north CGN's city won't be in any more jeopardy than any of our own cities until Marines, 100 turns off.

All things considered I believe CGN's security is of no greater risk than our own as a whole. The only tile it compromises is the city itself, and if GWT was to invade they have little reason to gun down a civ with only a couple cities when they have us, their sole real remaining competitor of such great strength sitting nearby.

	08-04-2004 04:51									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Diplomatically and strategically I totally agree with MZ and togas, but I think that Con has a point when he agues that the invasion will coma anyway and that we will probably not profit from CGN anymore by receiving their vote, because it is not probable that we will make it until now. That is the current situation. His point does but not provide an argument why we shouldn't do plan MZ-Togas, because it may not be likely, none here can assure us that we won't make it against GWT. Difficult, but far from impossible.

CGN will, after all wht we have done for them and after all whet they feel GWT and GCA have committed, whether that perception is true or false, never ally with either of them. If they do, then let us forever stop with diplomacy at all, because it's totally pointless then, in that case they are just like the AI.

Aidun

	08-04-2004 06:44									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Aidun His point does but not provide an argument why we shouldn't do plan MZ-Togas, Aidun

Because it does not interfere with our core and actually gives them some land they can work (plains VS desert.

And if GWT comes sooner vice later it wont make any difference where they are, we wont be able to protect them anyway.

But if later being in a better spot makes CGN a more viable player and possibly able to anchor the north.

Look at this way, it doesn't matter whether CGN is up on the pennisula or we leave it uninhabited. or we plant a city.

GWT if hey ttack there (highly unlikely anyway) whatever is there can either be captured or destroyed and they plop a settler down and hav a base of ops.

With a CGN settler "stashed" in our core they could theoretically rebuild somewhere again.

So at least IMHO not going to the NE pennisula mainly because of security is a weak arguement. Either way we will have to use resources to cover it IF GWT lands there which again I find unlikely (just look at the map and the proximity to the nearest crossings.)

And if CGN gets established there and gets units over they can cover it for us.

	08-04-2004 07:38									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

My proposal in chat was that we give CGN the most out-of-the-way and least useful city, yet most easily secured city we can. Personally, I like giving them one of the mountain/sea cities in our West near Equilibrium, one of the ones on the internal lake. I do not believe that CFC is enough of an invasion threat that this offers us a problem, but would make CGN's location very secure and of little loss to Apolyton.

Then, when and if we find any islands to our northwest, we build settlers, send them on OUR gallies, and found these new cities. We then gift the new cities to CGN and have them perform a palace jump to relocate to the islands once they are fully secure with the use of our military units. CGN can then build enough cannon fodder units to hopefully unit-wall the island(s) off from invasion (when combined with any cannon fodder unit wall we may have built).

This would leave CGN relatively self-sufficient and on their own landmass until at least Amphibious Assault, at which point we'd need to put more careful consideration into their defense. We may have them KEEP the one city on our internal lake just in case they lose their islands to a sudden GWT invasion with marines (since we'll need their vote in the U.N.).

The point is that CGN is going to be too small and weak to likely build their own settlers and their own gallies to transport them for building on the islands. It would seem more sensible for Apolyton to do this on their behalf and then just gift them the new territory.

The point is that we need for CGN to have at least ONE city in a location invulnerable to a quick GWT invasion at all times. This will be even more important after Amphibious Assault comes into play, but it is still important beforehand. This is why it is more sensible to give them a city along our INTERNAL lake where GWT will have more problem landing and taking it out in one turn.

We need not merely be concerned with the immediate dangers to the city we give CGN, but the long-term dangers to such a city. Amphibious Assault is a technology available before Fission, which grants construction of the United Nations. That's a window we need to anticipate and plan accordingly. Giving CGN one city, having them keep it for ~80+ turns, and then have them switch cities would be highly inefficient. I'd rather give them the correct city the first time.

	08-04-2004 19:28									#22
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

and so is combustion, which allow us to build battleships and Carriers, and Flight that allow us to build Airplanes and Bombers. All around the same time (IIRC, Amphibious is a tech that isn't required for the next age, very late in Industrail).

E_T

	09-04-2004 07:56									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by E_T IIRC, Amphibious is a tech that isn't required for the next age, very late in Industrail.

We'll have to remember that when GWT invades and razes CGN's only coastal city near the end of the Industrial Age, just before we were going to use them to win the U.N. vote...

Seriously, don't even make the issue an option. Just give them a city that GWT can't threaten without in the process threatening the entire continent. If they can take out the entire continent, it's a lost cause anyhow. If they only have enough to punch out one city, let's not hand them CGN's only city on a silver platter.

	09-04-2004 08:10									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos We'll have to remember that when GWT invades and razes CGN's only coastal city near the end of the Industrial Age, just before we were going to use them to win the U.N. vote... Seriously, don't even make the issue an option. Just give them a city that GWT can't threaten without in the process threatening the entire continent. If they can take out the entire continent, it's a lost cause anyhow. If they only have enough to punch out one city, let's not hand them CGN's only city on a silver platter.

CGN dont need a city that cant be razed.
All they need, is a settler deep within our territory.

	09-04-2004 19:17									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

H_E.

I think we ought to give them the far north for now. Let 'em have 2 cities crammed up there and try to maximize their commerce.

2 cities are two less tiles we need to cover with units pre-marines, and of course CGN will have *some* units to assist in coast blocking.

If we're worried about their cities once Marines come about, we can always take them over at that time. Frankly, I'd be more worried about CFC as a conduit for GWT invasion.

-Arrian

	12-04-2004 02:31									#26
	Got spare money?

What's the point for CGN to continue the game if they'll live the next 1000 years on a dessert island and in the end voting for another civ as the winner?

Seems boring, but good for Apolyton of course.

	12-04-2004 06:04									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I guess I'll be in the minority, but I think we should give them enough land to make a decent contribution to our ultimate allied victory. Certainely there's room somewhere for 3 or 4 cities for them to manage that they could do better than us or CFC due to the no or almost no corruption.

Also if we offer then _A_ city, then I expect they won't be intereted in sticking it out really.

	12-04-2004 06:17									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

We have 10 turns atleast to see what is up in the NW sea area, along that sea channel. Lets wait and see what, if anything is up there before we talk of giving them more than 1 or 2 cities.

There might be enough land for them to have 4 or 5 close cities for building units with up there.

E_T

	12-04-2004 06:31									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think the 3 sites we have planned in the north are their best bets for a productive empire of any size. Their capital (the northern-most city) will be relatively productive with that 3 food game tile, and the other two cities can have a Worker added to each and work 2 mined tiles for Harbors within a reasonable amount of time.

	12-04-2004 17:25									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

Are we going to poll this or wait on this or what are we doing?

There was discusssion on this in chat last night, again discussing the different options.

Where are we going with this??????