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Nylan-Nolan
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
No, you essentially said that Mormons think you can only go to heaven if your baptised and that if another church baptised your dead relatives you wouldn't really care because you dont think its binding.
I said it may not be an issue about whether it is binding or not, and that Mormons are (yet again) forcing Mormonism on other people. |
IF they are converted in post-homugenous life, they agree to accpt that the baptism put them into the church, then they are members. If they are not converted, they can just ignore the fact that the baptism took place, and they are not part of the church.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't read anything past the quote. I was in a rush.
Last edited by Nylan-Nolan on 15-04-2004 at 04:45
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Nylan-Nolan
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Read Verto's explanation of your post-life options pertaining to the baptisms, you dolt. If you don't want to join our church after death, you don't have to. The baptism just provides an opportunity if you want to. It's totally optional.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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quote:
And what about people who never had an opportunity to hear Christian teaching before they died?
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Waited for this response.
Have you not read Romans 4?
Abraham Justified by Faith
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
“Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, "So shall your offspring be." Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
.................................................................................
All those who believe that God has the power to do what he promises will go to heaven, even if they lack the gift of Christ's atonement for sin. For God saves those who trust in him, just as he did Abraham who knew neither the Law, nor Christ.
But we are different, we have Christ, and the Law which points to Christ, so if we hear of either, we have a choice. Either we can accept the sacrifice of Christ, or we can reject him.
For those who have not heard of Christ, even in this day and age, God will not hold that against them, in his mercy. He has placed within everyone the capacity to know right from wrong, and will gage people based on their lives that they live, just as he did with Abraham.
Therefore, it is not necessary to baptise those who are already dead, for God can still draw them into heaven. In baptising the dead, you show your lack of faith in the power of God, to save those whom he will save.
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Jon Miller
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that's not the only question to determine whether one is Christian
JM
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
The person who is dead no longer has the choice of being baptised or not.
What does baptism mean to you? To me, all those who are baptised are members of the body of Christ, they have made a commitment to Christ. |
The deceased has, according to their doctrine, the option of accepting the baptism in the afterlife. A baptism means nothing without the consent of the baptisee. If someone were dragged kicking and screaming to a river and forcibly baptised, would you give that baptism any weight? I sure wouldn't.
But regardless, if you're a Christian, it won't matter, because you've already accepted Christ and are part of his body.
If you're of another faith or no faith, you don't believe the baptism has any effect at all.
What's the problem? And remember, they're not actually baptizing the dead... it's a symbolic baptism. No real dead people were harmed in the making of this baptism.
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12-04-2004 08:41
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