12-04-2004 19:26									#1
	Scandanavia - For the glory of Odin! Support Apolyton

Hi,
I noticed another thread requesting for strategy concerning a C3DG on a Scandanavian invasion of Madrid, and decided to play the Scandanavians for the 1st time, and have come away very very impressed!

Some quick notes about how I play. I'm not a particularly brilliant player, and I normally play on Monarch (which is just difficult enough to make things challenging and yet still *fun* for me).

Comments on the Scandanavians.
The commerce bonus from Seafaring is particularly useful in the early game (provided that some of your cities are coastal) as they have a significant impact on the speed of the scientific research (and tax income). Further, assuming that you're able to then research at a decent rate, the seafaring trait helps you to find the other civs and swap techs all round. Little needs to be said about the Militaristic trait as it's relatively straightforward. My only concern is that with the Seafaring trait, your 1st city will tend to be by the coast, and as such, less useful in controlling corruption (as this typically means that your cities will expand in one direction from the capital).

BUT, far and away the most interesting part about the scandanavians are their amphibious UU! A 6/2/1 resource-free amphibious attacker available at a time when the typical defender (assuming tech parity) is a Pikeman. Add to this the fact that this amphibious attacker is practically immune to attack prior to their assault because at this era, there are no true 'attack' ships. My only gripe is that at this time, you don't really have particularly efficient transport ships either.

Further, since the Berserker is almost as efficient as the calvary in attack (less the retreat ability, but I consider their sea-based mobility almost on par with the calvary in an initial assault), they can function as useful assault troops all the way until the extensive deployment of the Rifleman, which can only be realistically taken down by Berserkers (or even Calvary) with the aid of some bombardment or in a serious massed assault.

Anyway, back to the game I played, I stopped playing shortly after I obtained replaceable parts. At this time, I was on Facism, researching at 80-90% of my budget, and enjoying tech parity and occassionally a small tech advantage over my opponents, having a 20% score advantage over my nearest opponent, and the 2nd and 3rd ranking civs were at war with each other and both asking for my support vs. the other. At this stage, I thought it was rather pointless to continue, as global domination was inevitable.. heh.

Finally, on to the reason for this posting. Apart from wanting to point out the strength of the Scandanavians (which has recieved very little coverage here), I was hoping to solicit some response from other players who have tried playing the Scandanavians, and have any comments on my views or have any other interesting points concerning this rather neglected civilisation. In addition, I would like to know if anyone has a view on Berserker armies. I've tried using them, but somehow don't find them particularly efficient as they take up too much space on boats and also with the Berserker base movement of 1, have a limited blitz ability.

PS. As a cool perk of playing the Scandanavians, you get to rename your cities to titles such as 'New Asgard', 'Odin's Garden', etc etc and still stay in 'character' for the civ!

	12-04-2004 20:17									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I haven't seriously played the viking since the days of PTW and the Expansionist trait.

The las full single player game I had is here: http://central.masterzen.net/index.php?showtopic=975

then, I haven't played many a SP game lately anyway. More PBEMs and demogames.

I have to say that the Vikings have what has to be my favorite UU in the entire game, and it comes with what is likely the single best upgrade available (archer-zerk). When I was playing them in PTW, I always tried for the Lighthouse just to have that extra move on galleys. With seafaring, that seems to be not needed AS MUCH, but could also arguably be even better. 5 move galleys?!

I think the Vikings biggest disadvantage now is in the early game. Archers are really what you want to be building, but not having horses or swords aroung with an agressive neighbor can be dangerous, especially in PBEM's and above Monarch.

Now add to that the increased upgrade costs, and it starts to become difficult to field Zerks in the large numbers that I could manage in PTW. Seafaring can help negate some of that cost if the land is right, but not all.

Now, since I am looking at this game almost purely from PBEM perspective now, I would argue the Vikings are best suited now to not build archers, but rather standard military for upgrade early and manually build fewer numbers of zerks later for specialized uses. Probably the best Zerk use is to punch a hole and conquer a city on a coast only for the specific purpose of landing calvalry that have their moves intact and can hit the cities behind the lines.

While the 6 attack is killer against the AI, the 1 move coupled with the 2 defense is going to get you raped against a human in a land-war.

I think the Vikings are one of those civ's highly reliant on a kind map as far as MP goes. Against the AI, they remain one of my favorite.

	12-04-2004 21:26									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm playing my first real Viking game right now, and have just discovered Invention. It's Monarch, Huge, 8 Civs, and I'm on an interesting map, sharing the continent with the Dutch, French and Egyptians and with full contact on the other continent (Persia, Iroquois, America and Germany), thanks to those wonderful Seafaring curraghs (and very close continent spacing). I've been gearing up for an Archer-Berserk upgrade, but still have a little bit to go for Leo's. As soon as possible, though, I'm upgrading and taking out the Dutch.

	13-04-2004 18:19									#4
	Moving on to Emp Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

UnOrthOdOx, I have little experience in MP, but I can see what you mean by the Vikings have difficulties in effectively deploying a 2def 1mvt unit.

Anyway, I have just embarked on playing the Scandanavians on the next difficulty level (Emp), which is causing me serious problems. With the increase in unhappy citizens, I'm having difficulty diverting resources to produce ships and non-garrison units. I'm also finding it very difficult to maintain tech parity. I suppose I'd have to adapt my strategy to take greater advantage of the militaristic trait and clobber my neighbours in submission and use pop-rushing to keep my population down. At least in the early game.

I'll start a new Emp game using the Scandis later tonight and let you guys know how I shape up in the morning.

A student can only do 2 out of the 3 things he's expected to do: Study, Sleep, Play. Guess which 2 I choose.

	14-04-2004 01:20									#5
	Remove this text

In the MOD I'm attempting to create I'm adding the 'Longship' to the Viking UU. Hopefully that will make them even more fun to play.

Modding is very tricky though, it will take me awhile to figure out Civ3 Mods.

	14-04-2004 04:23									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ok, I've just stopped playing the Scandis on Emp, and as mentioned earlier, since I normally find the best challenge balance on Monarch, I've been finding it hard going.

I was fortunate in the sense that I settled near 3 cows (1 immediately available, 1 available after the 1st culture expansion with the Palace and, 1 just off, but nicely placed so that the 2nd city gets to use it even with being on the coast), so initial expansion was relatively easy, and a bunch of settlers plus a couple of cities (1st 2) with granies were up shortly. Also, by the 5th city up, I had incense and diamonds within my national borders.

It proceeded pretty normally. Managed to get the GL. Picked up a bunch of Ancient techs. Found that I had exactly 1 iron and 1 horse with my borders. And just after I had picked up Sun Tze with a carefully planned pre-build, I finally went to war with my northern neighbour (Romans w/o iron) about 20 turns off Invention (and my UU) as they had decided to try to take my border cities with 4 horsemen. At this point, I had about a dozen archers, 4 catapults and 4 spearmen massed at my border cities (as you can see, I've was planning on a berzerker upgrade once I hit Invention. The war went on reasonably well, capturing 2 cities in 7 turns, and as I was about to march on a 3rd city, the Romans sued for peace. I figure that this was mostly a fluke as fighting Legionnaries with archers would have been costly.

I was then faced with a dilemma, the GL had just given me Invention, and I could finally get some Berserkers (and the GA following that would have definately aided the war effort). I would have marched on, but then I realised that I simply could not afford to upgrade my archer hordes! The price of upgrading now is simply ridiculous.

So, now that I've learnt that a mass upgrade is not feasible (unless I could manage a L.Workshop), I'm not entirely sure if it was productive to have focused on building archers as the mainstay of my ground forces. Resources would probably have been put to better use by building horsemen or even swordsmen. Probably horsemen as they have a better longterm upgrade path.

The good news is, even with (what I've decided is) a mistake in choosing my attack units, I was 2nd on score and was leading in overall culture. SO, hopefully if I play another Scandi Emp game, I should be able to now play and win on 1 higher level than where I was. Always a good thing.

Oh, on a non-scandi related question, when I stopped playing, it was circa 600AD, and the typical tech levels of everyone was around Invention/Theology (except for the score leader - Japan, still stuck in the previous era). Is this tech level typical of a Emp game?

	19-04-2004 16:18									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I played the Vikings often enough to just LOVE this civ. Well, if you play it rough. and on archipelago. Their UU is probably the best UU in the Medieval Ages. It combines the power (well, almost) of cavalry with ther amphibious landing capability. To take out cities in 1 turns without landing first is really a boon.
Half-prices barracks and harbors makes it a real killer.
You can go the 'Emperor, how to improve your skills' thread for at least one nice play won by domination. Enjoy.

	20-04-2004 02:04									#8
	Support Apolyton

Heh, I'm currently struggling with the Scandis on Emp level. i can't seem to get the right balance between REXing fast enough to keep pace with the AI as well as build up a decent army to bash out the competitors on my particular continent.

Sigh, just figure I have to play more and get the balance out nicely.

	20-04-2004 02:09									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Itake it the extreme. REX like hell, then build up infrastructure. Change to Fascism (Yes, thats right) when you have outstriped the AI to tanks by ~30 turns, and go on a killing spree. When you finish the game you get to see a purple tide sweep over all the AIs in about 50 turns.

Pretty. (The end game, not the strategy. Thats ugly, but it works)

	20-04-2004 02:14									#10
	Suffering from ads?

I actually use facism when I'm serious about pursueing a military based victory as well. Besides, there's a nice perk about drafting tonnes of defenders out of a recently captured town. Reduces their citizens and keeps you from getting a bashing (not to mention the fact that they function as MP does help some too).

	20-04-2004 02:35									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The UU works well on continents, too. While your main force (Knights, Cav, whatever) is carrying on the primary thrust of your offensive, a few galleys or caravels loaded with Berserks can wreak havoc on a coastline. With the 2 defense, and not wanting to take up precious transport space with defensive units, I prefer to raze in this situation. Hey, if you're playing the Vikes, you really shouldn't be averse to leveling a dozen or so towns , but I digress. Anyway, razing coastal towns serves to give you de facto control of the seas in addition to crippling your enemy and freeing up space for your expansion. It also effectively makes them 6/2/5 units (in galleys), and, though that range is obviously limited to coastline, it's still pretty powerful. Having a couple of spare ships trailing to pick up workers and ferry them home or catch left behind Berserks up to the rest of the fleet isn't a bad idea.

	20-04-2004 06:45									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Solomwi ...Berserks can wreak havoc on a coastline. With the 2 defense, and not wanting to take up precious transport space with defensive units, I prefer to raze in this situation. Hey, if you're playing the Vikes, you really shouldn't be averse to leveling a dozen or so towns ,

Theseus, oh Theseus, where for art thou?

	20-04-2004 10:59									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

LOL, Theseus and I have long known we share the same fondness for amphibious terror. And make no mistake, berserks work best as a terror weapon.

	20-04-2004 21:57									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Just quit another scandi game on Emp.

This one went a little better. Started with 1 cow and a bunch of bonus grassland. Had to move 1 because I was sitting right on the cow and moving one also put me on a river plus let my capital city occupy the land-bridge between 2 oceans. But it wasn't too bad since my worker gets to start work immediately.

Shortly discovered that there was a bunch of ivory just to the south, which helped alleviate the unhappiness problem. Also discovered that I was only sharing the continent with the Koreans. Excellent, no UUs to really worry about.

The game went on quite nicely, managed to snag Zeus, GL, Sun Tzu. Missed out on Leo (by 2 turns!). Managed to get Sistine Chapel. Didn't bother with Lighthouse since it appeared that I was on an archip. map (I prefer to play with random terrain settings). Managed to maintain relative tech parity with rounds of trading (thanks to the amazing little viking ships ) Waged a little war with the Koreans to pick up diamonds, the Pyramids as well as deprive them of the only other source of saltpeter on the continent (the other one being right in the middle of my cities).

But, things rapidly went downhill from there. I was unable to maintain tech parity with everyone else while waging war with the Koreans, and when I quit, I was working on Banking while the Japanese, Arabs and the Ottomans were running around killing each other with Calvary and Riflemen. I suppose I might have eventually caught up since I would have had the whole continent to myself, and my FP was nicely placed to take advantage of all the newly added ex-Korean cities. BUT, that's assuming I don't get some mass-invasion of Calvary on my shores in the next 30-50 turns. Oh, did I mention that the Arabs managed to get the Templar?

Sigh. So, still lots to work on, especially making full use of the GL as well as the following GA from Berzerks to get a decent grip on the post-Education era. That said, the amphib. capabilities of the Berzerks are lethal when all they're realistically up against are Pikemen. It was quite a bit of an effort to work up a reasonable fleet of galleys to carry them though. Oh, and a final point on the Berzerkers. They arrive at a beautiful time for your GA. By the time you get invention, you should have a reasonable empire, with mines all round to take full advantage (which is another reason why I don't like civs with really early GAs like the Egyptians or the Babylonians).

	21-04-2004 19:31									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well, I just started a new game in SP for the express purpose of aiding this thread.

Random all on the map, Standard, Restless, 8 random opponents, Emperor Difficulty.

I started alone on a modest island, the map appears to have been an arid, cool/normal, archi map with min/mid water so far. I have SOME grass, Silks, and mostly fields with the only source of fresh water on the far side of the island from the fields. I'll get a pick up later.

Just entered Medieval era, and I have tech parity, perhaps 1 behind someone, but not for long.

My island is filled, probably a little close spacing for some of you, and there are 2 other modest islands I'm attempting to colonize first to my east.

There is a nice continent to the N with England, Germany, and Russia on it. Hittites and...can't recall are off far to the east/west but I've yet to really discover their lands. Germany is the only contender to colonizing the islands, and I want them as they have dessert and will likely supply me with salt peter and oil down the road.

Started out going straight for philosophy, meeting the Germans 2 turns before acquiring it, and trading ALPHABET (why they didn't have it yet was beyond me) and 80 gold for Pottery, then sold Writting for Bronze Working and 80 gold. (best offers they would make me) Philosophy and Map Making traded to England and Germany to bring me to parity.

Along about this time Germany and England declare war on Russia. Have fun guys. This likely plays a role in my acquiring Code of Laws and Literature first.

I took the Great Library as a compensation prize for missing the Lighthouse by 3 turns, have killed research, and am biulding improvements where needed and archers/boats everywhere else while colonizing the islands as quick as my poor builder skills let me.

I'll be starting a prebuild for Leo's soon and continue banking towards that mass upgrade. Let's see if I can't get the 50 archers and enough gold I used to in PTW.

	21-04-2004 21:22									#16
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yeah, I'm pretty much able to maintain parity up to around this point in the game (ie. before GL runs out). I have a question, are you still in despotism, or have you shifted to monarchy/republic yet? If you've shifted, when did you shift over?

	21-04-2004 21:29									#17
	Suffering from ads?

I haven't yet as no one has any of the advanced gov't yet.

I'll consider my options when they do...

Just keep in mind I wasn't given this name for following convnetional wisdom.

	22-04-2004 19:17									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well, I got the chance to play a very little bit more...

And am heavily considering quitting since victory is already all but assured, and I haven't even got the zerks yet.

Why?

I didn't notice it at first, but those 2 islands I was so intent on settling?

Well, they contain damn near the world supply of Iron as well. I now own 5! sources, and am aware of only one other one so far, and it's owner won't have access to it till...astronomy allows sea trading?

I've mapped everyone, Russia has been destroyed and now Germany/England are at war. Whoever wins that will be NASTY! So, I might play through just for that.

As for govt...

well,

um...

Feudalism.

Currently have 5 boats, 20 archers, and 2K in the bank. 30 turns to invention lest the AI actually research something.

Made mistake of building too many warriors, though. Have 18 warriors...

That's what I get for trying to play through quickly.

	22-04-2004 20:59									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Made mistake of building too many warriors, though. Have 18 warriors...

Meh, homeland defense/mp

-Arrian

	22-04-2004 21:20									#20
	Increase Your PM Length

18? Is that all?

I usuly have upwards of 25, sometimes 40. And I rarely (read never) do warrior->sword gambit.

	22-04-2004 21:47									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Ok, so it's official then, there's nothing wrong with playing Scandi's on Emp, it's just that I suck

So, in the spirit of asking for help on the strategy forum, here's a start that I'm about to begin playing.

v1.22
Standard, random map, normal age etc etc.
Everything else is on normal, barbs, AI aggression.

Looking at the start, I see dyes nearby (going to waste lots of time roading it though), and seem to have a decent starting position (coastal, on river, 2 forests nearby to help rush a few early builds, 1 cow and bunch of bonus grassland as well.

A few questions. What would be an 'ideal' initial build order for this starting position (I'm inclined towards warrior, curragh, settler, granary, but I'm not sure about not including a worker before going for the granery). What's the 1st tech you would research (As per my initial build inclination, I'm looking at pottery 1st, but the alternative would be either masonry (for a quick pre-build on GL, or ceremonial burial).

Thanks!

Attachment: scandi 4000bc.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	22-04-2004 22:14									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh, didn't consider the hassle of opening a save just to see a start position, so here's a screen capture.

Attachment: scandi 4000bc.jpg
This has been downloaded 139 time(s).

	22-04-2004 22:27									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yeah, I'm more complaining about 10 of them could have easily been more archers.

There's also a few spears in there I shoulda changed, I SHOULD have roughly 35 archers by now if I'ld been paying attention. As for defense, I typically don't concern myself overly much when isolated on an island until cavs arrive. Even then, I prefer offensive units to strike landing parties, or more boats to sink navies.

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 22-04-2004 at 22:33

	22-04-2004 22:33									#24
	Got spare money?

As for tech, I would most definately go for writing then philosophy and hope you can trade for pottery before finishing philosophy, then grab mapmaking with the free tech. If you don't get pottery by then, grab the most expensive. (Code of Laws, maybe?)

Build que, well, there are those better than I at such things.

	22-04-2004 22:49									#25
	Got spare money?

I don't see the need to build a curragh so soon. What if that is not open sea, but just a small body of water?

Get some scouting in before going to the curragh. I do not like to make one in my first city at all. I like to get a second or third city to do that job.

I want to find out more about what is near me on the land. waiting a bit before going to sea will not hurt you. I want to prioritize getting camps up.

	22-04-2004 22:55									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

These are my first 21 turns, but the are not typical. I might have made some mistakes as well.

1) Settler 1, worker road
2) Settler Apolyton, build warrior (5), Growth in 7, research pottery (12)
3)
4) Road complete, worker-> cattle
5) Worker irrigate
6)
7) Warrior built, moves 3. Build worker
8)
9) Irrigation complete, road. Pop 2, cow + forest worked 20% lux
10) worker complete, build settler. Worker -> dyes
11) W(orker) 2 road
12) W1 road complete, mine BG
13)
14)
15) pop 2, BG and Cow worked. +4fpt, +3spt, +7bpt.
16)
17)
18) mine complete, W1 -> BG
19) Settler complete, moves 22. Dyes roaded. Build worker
20) Off Topic founded, build warrior WF forest for 3 turns, then Grass. W2 deforest
21) English contacted.

After Pottery, I researched Writing, aiming for Philo.

And I hope this is dissected, so the regulars can help me.

Attachment: decent scandi, 2950 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	22-04-2004 23:06									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Why settler 1 first? I haven't opened it, just asking.

I would think that as a seafaring civ being on the coast would be desirable.

	22-04-2004 23:16									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

That was my first thought, too, UnO. I'd lay money that the water we see is open ocean, since the civ is Seafaring, but even if not, it's easy to verify whether or not it's a large enough body to possibly have other civs using it eventually.

	22-04-2004 23:26									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, even if I were planning a move, it would be settler 2. I have a caveat about having cities with tiles on ocean they'll never be able to utilize.

By moving 2, you would have all land tiles around the capitol, thus non 'wasted' by ocean without the possibility of harbor.

Moving WOULD advantage a slightly better distance corruption to more city sites, so I can see logic in moving, somewhat. In this instance I personally wouldn't, though, unless that is a bonus grass under the city.

Second, now looking at it, why road the first tile too, if it's not going to be used. Would it not be better to get that cow irrigated quicker?

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 22-04-2004 at 23:33

	22-04-2004 23:47									#30
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Wow, thanks for the speedy response

I've done some preliminary play on this game, but I'm not particularly happy with the way it's turned out, so I'm going to reload the 4000BC file.

Incidentally, that bit of coast does lead out, the continent is U-shaped, and there's nobody north on both sides of the U, so the curragh was pretty much a waste of time (plus it got sunk by some barbarian galley before I could even go on a suicide run across the sea).

I'm not sure about moving my city at all. The seafaring bonus is quite useful for the 1st couple of techs. As for moving the settler 2 to avoid ocean square, my logic against that is that ocean squares in this particular start location won't come into play until after I'm able to grow the city past 12. There are enough squares around it, even with the 2 mountains to the NW.

I'm also not sure about making a beeline for writing - philo straightaway. I figure I can afford to get 1 basic tech 1st (probably pottery) and still make the philo freebie tech.

Also, with the cow and forests around, it's quite possible for the start queue to go warrior, settler without having to wait for growth. I'm undecided over whether or not it's a good idea. The good thing is that I'd double my number of cities faster, the bad thing is that the 30 shields for the settler might be better used elsewhere.