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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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Lets just hope the BNP never come to anything resembling power. The possible consequences are fairly obvious, it's not rocket science. |
The 'consequences' would be a stronger Britain.
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Since we don't know all the consequences yet still must be held responsible for them (as no one else can be responsible for the results of our individual actions), the best a safest route is to level the playing field for everyone. Help those worse off than us, no matter who they are, and we can be sure that the high ground we occupy doesn't end in a cliff. Act not in purely national interests but in terms of overall benefit and let everyone try to make the most of their life. |
I dont agree, how can we be sure that in the end it will help Britain. The only thing that will help Britain is and 'us' and 'them' attitude.
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Utilitarianism, greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. |
But you can't be sure it will help the British people who our government is there to serve.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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Thats ok with me.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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The 'consequences' would be a stronger Britain.
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Lovely propaganda. The consequences would be weaker foreign economies who are linked to us, who would then either retaliate or wait for us to have a down-turn. In the long term, the BNP would severely damage the national economy.
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I dont agree, how can we be sure that in the end it will help Britain. The only thing that will help Britain is and 'us' and 'them' attitude.
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Partly true. In the immediate sense, you are correct, but in the long term, it would be disastrous. Like I said, economics does not respect national borders, unless you want to make this country economically self-sufficient, which is of course plainly ridiculous.
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But you can't be sure it will help the British people who our government is there to serve.
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Us and them. It wouldn't allow a fall in its mandated peoples utility, but not gain at a disproportionate loss to others. You are proposing, on the other hand, a kind of blind and selfish policy that would eventually fire back anyway, rendering it pointless.
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I agree with that statement. However I'd be an "us" while you'd be a "them".
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I choose all of us  . The line between us and them is a fallacious one, and I have yet to be shown otherwise.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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Lovely propaganda. The consequences would be weaker foreign economies who are linked to us, who would then either retaliate or wait for us to have a down-turn. In the long term, the BNP would severely damage the national economy. |
I still do not agree with this for 2 reasons.
1. There are ways to make sure that they do not retaliate (diplomatic pressure, economic incentives) If we think they will retaliate that simply do not implement the policy.
2. Every country in the world is not linked to us and most of them can not hurt us. Take the outsourcing of jobs to India, if law was put in place to prevent it why would would the Indian government have any ill feeling towards us, when it is British companies in the first place. These are the kind of small protectionist measures that imo will become increasingly neccassary in the future.
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Partly true. In the immediate sense, you are correct, but in the long term, it would be disastrous. Like I said, economics does not respect national borders, unless you want to make this country economically self-sufficient, which is of course plainly ridiculous. |
Why in the long term would it be disastrous? We have had a nationalist foreign policy since the start of Empire and I'd say it's turned out quite well for us so far.
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Us and them. It wouldn't allow a fall in its mandated peoples utility, but not gain at a disproportionate loss to others. You are proposing, on the other hand, a kind of blind and selfish policy that would eventually fire back anyway, rendering it pointless. |
It is not a blind and selfish policy, it's a bloody sensible one. MP's are elected to serve in the best interests of their constituents and when making decisions should always take into account their interests first, that is what they are there for.
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I choose all of us . The line between us and them is a fallacious one, and I have yet to be shown otherwise. |
Actually it's not, Britain is us eveyone else is them
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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2. Every country in the world is not linked to us and most of them can not hurt us. Take the outsourcing of jobs to India, if law was put in place to prevent it why would would the Indian government have any ill feeling towards us, when it is British companies in the first place. These are the kind of small protectionist measures that imo will become increasingly neccassary in the future.
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And yet companies are benefiting economically from that. It's the nature of the free market. The market is a device for generating wealth and growing the economy, not social support. Ultimately, if you leave it, it ends up taking a Darwinian approach which is much greater for Britain anyway!
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1. There are ways to make sure that they do not retaliate (diplomatic pressure, economic incentives) If we think they will retaliate that simply do not implement the policy.
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You simplify: To every action there is a consequence. In few areas is that more true than in economics. If you have a general policy of protectionism, you are going to have a problem. In an individual case, perhaps you are correct wrt the outsourcing, however it sets a bad precident to restrict that in my opinion, an inconsistent law in any case, particularly with a private company, and a restriction on the equalisation of wealth. Furthermore, outsourcing some jobs to India benefits India to a greater degree than it makes Britain suffer, so on balance it is an action whose consequences gain the most utility. You rid nationalism from economics, and you see that is the best outcome.
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Why in the long term would it be disastrous? We have had a nationalist foreign policy since the start of Empire and I'd say it's turned out quite well for us so far.
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But we haven't though. The economic policy during the age of empire was far less nationalistic than it was post WWII. Most activity was taken on the basis that if something benefits the colonies or the locality then indirectly, but significantly, it will reverberate and benefit Britain. Same thing applies here.
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It is not a blind and selfish policy, it's a bloody sensible one. MP's are elected to serve in the best interests of their constituents and when making decisions should always take into account their interests first, that is what they are there for.
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And that is why the politics of limited span of sympathy severely sucks. When taking actions that affect more than the people you are mandated to consider, one should also consider the other people it affects.
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Actually it's not, Britain is us eveyone else is them
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You are merely reiterating the distinction. I am saying that distinction is fallacious and you are not addressing that.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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Originally posted by Derekrage
Lazarus - The Vikings never really settled in the Danelaw apart from a few town, they were simply the ruling class. Ireland is not a part of Britain, also I should have said England instead of Britain as Britain as state didn't exist until a few centuries ago  .
As for the rest on the list like Pictish Scotland, Wales and Cornwall, that is not really multi-culturism in the way that I mean. They all had their own lands and eventually got conquered/assimilated into a more powerful country.
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You haven't of course defined what this common culture is- or indeed what constitutes 'British' culture. Nor indeed why being conquered would necessarily lead to the elimination of cultures in Cornwall, Scotland or Wales- as was said of the Roman Empire, the Greeks being vanquished, conquered Rome. The Scottish cultural contribution to British 'culture' is so much a part of what is thought to be a British experience it's a cliche-Kenneth McKellar and Moira Anderson on New Year's Eve television, bagpipes for the Queen Mother's funeral, tartan on Japanese tourists in London and Dundee marmalade for breakfast.
If anything, British culture is a magpie of other cultures- just like the English language borrows whole phrases and words from other languages.
Your notion that the Vikings 'never settled' in the Danelaw outside of selected towns, is so wrong it's laughable.
The 'assimilation' of Cornwall seems to have taken a long time- I lived there, so I think I'd know.
As for Wales having been assimilated- I take it that's somewhere you don't visit often? The native Welsh language has shown the greatest growth of all the old Celtic tongues of the British Isles. Undoubtedly due to all that assimilation. I'm sure P.A. is doing his very best to assimilate to Wales and learn Welsh, no doubt trying to eat laver bread and enjoy 'Pobol y Cwm' too- just like a good foreigner would.
As to Ireland not being part of Britain- Eire may not be, but the Irish contribution to what you might deem to be 'British' culture is considerable, from Regency drama, to 'English' satire and children's stories and the modern novel and poetry and even Great Britain's military history- not to mention all those lovely canals and buildings of the Industrial Revolution and Victorian times.
If you're an example of an ex-BNP cadre then the country's safe. I still think you should consider the Rockall option.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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Every pound spent on health care would provide much more utility if spent say on treating AIDS in Africa. Should Britain do without healthcare so that a greater number of Africans can enjoy a greater good than we can (with the same money)?
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In answer to your latter question, yes. A pound per capita in Britain might buy an extra syringe per person. For the same amount, you have the possibility of far greater healthcare out in the third world, because conditions are worse there, the same money would go far further in improving things, whereas the same money would improve things less here.
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And as for nationalism, you're being nationalistic in saying that we should have more open borders to trade and immigrants because it helps us.
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No, I am saying that it does help us, but that there are other concerns than that. I would still support immigration even if there was no nationalistic argument for it, because there are other arguments for it that I support. I avoid nationalistic arguments for myself because they are generally fallacious, inconsistent, emotive and simplistic. Nonetheless, to convince those that are afflicted with national socialism, one can show how their agenda isn't incompatible with what I purport.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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You haven't of course defined what this common culture is- or indeed what constitutes 'British' culture. Nor indeed why being conquered would necessarily lead to the elimination of cultures in Cornwall, Scotland or Wales- as was said of the Roman Empire, the Greeks being vanquished, conquered Rome. The Scottish cultural contribution to British 'culture' is so much a part of what is thought to be a British experience it's a cliche-Kenneth McKellar and Moira Anderson on New Year's Eve television, bagpipes for the Queen Mother's funeral, tartan on Japanese tourists in London and Dundee marmalade for breakfast. |
The common culture of Britain is simply our language, customs and way of life.
I never said being conquered would lead to the elimination of a culture, I said that their culture was assimilated, which it was. Wales was treated like a part of England by English and British rulers for a long time and their language was almost killed off.
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As for Wales having been assimilated- I take it that's somewhere you don't visit often? The native Welsh language has shown the greatest growth of all the old Celtic tongues of the British Isles. Undoubtedly due to all that assimilation. I'm sure P.A. is doing his very best to assimilate to Wales and learn Welsh, no doubt trying to eat laver bread and enjoy 'Pobol y Cwm' too- just like a good foreigner would. |
I've actually been to Wales on holiday quite a lot, the differences between England and Wales are no more than the differences between Newcastle and London, which is to say not a lot. Britain is made up of three countries England, Scotland and Wales but we all have nearly the same culture.
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As to Ireland not being part of Britain- Eire may not be, but the Irish contribution to what you might deem to be 'British' culture is considerable, from Regency drama, to 'English' satire and children's stories and the modern novel and poetry and even Great Britain's military history- not to mention all those lovely canals and buildings of the Industrial Revolution and Victorian times. |
I don't really know what you're arguing about here, but I agree the Irish contribution to our culture is considerable, as is our contribution to theirs.
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If you're an example of an ex-BNP cadre then the country's safe. I still think you should consider the Rockall option. |
I prefer Newcastle if you dont mind
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what products would you rather buy. Products of a British company manufactured elsewhere, or products of a foreign company manufactured in Britain? |
Azazel- I'd rather buy the best product. British companies ahould manufacture in Britain though and have a responsibility the community where they are based.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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Lazarus-
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Which language? We have five active ones. |
English, everybody speaks English
British customs.
British way of life.
Lazarus, I understand what you're getting at, I used to get this question a lot when campaigning for the BNP. Compare Britain to Italy, what sets us apart? It is our language, customs and way of life. That is what makes a country different and unique, do you really believe that there is no such thing as a British or Scottish, English and Welsh culture?
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Starchild
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a raving alcoholic drama queen with a penchant for the biosciences
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
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Originally posted by Derekrage
Lazarus-
English, everybody speaks English
British customs.
British way of life.
Lazarus, I understand what you're getting at, I used to get this question a lot when campaigning for the BNP. Compare Britain to Italy, what sets us apart? It is our language, customs and way of life. That is what makes a country different and unique, do you really believe that there is no such thing as a British or Scottish, English and Welsh culture? |
But having a British culture doesn't mean we should fear assimilating other cultures into it. Afterall, as you put said, the three countries mixed and combined cultures to get the overall British culture. So I don't see why we won't be able to mix and combine immigrant cultures into ours.
I mean, I eat sushi and drink Vietnamese coffee, listen to Bhangrha music and Britrock, wear American clothing labels made in Cambodia that have special pockets for my Japanese-Korean electronics manufactured in China. I can match French wines with Thai curries served in my Morroccon themed kitchen. And I still consider myself as British as the old guy down the road that likes warm beer, bland food, and cricket after church on sundays. So if I can intergrate all the outside influences into my core of what it means to be British, then why should I fear immigration or free trade or the EU or anything else that the UK is "under threat" from? What it means to be British today is different from what it meant 100 years ago. It'll be different 100 years in the future. The way of governing the UK politically and economically is different today than it was in the past or will be in the future. Things change. It's futile to throw up barriers and draw lines in the sand to resist that change because history doesn't stop moving. Nothing is permenant and if you disagree with that, then you've gotta take it up with Siddhatthra the Buddha.
As for everyone speaking English...tell that to the Glaswegians.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Derekrage
The common culture of Britain is simply our language, customs and way of life.
I never said being conquered would lead to the elimination of a culture, I said that their culture was assimilated, which it was. Wales was treated like a part of England by English and British rulers for a long time and their language was almost killed off.
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Since you've neatly sidestepped the question YET AGAIN, I'll reiterate- what is this common British culture? What are British customs? What is the British way of life?
What exactly does someone from Bangor whose first language is Welsh have in common with an Orkneyman or an Essex woman?
If you say a common language, I can say there are plenty of Indians, Jamaicans, Singaporeans and South Africans who all fit that bill.
If you say a common culture, I can say that British Catholics do not necessarily have the same culture as British Protestants, or that British working class people do not have the same culture as the Duke of Norfolk, or the British middle class.
What links Up Helly Aa with the Welsh Eisteddfod or the Cornish Gorsedd? The fact that they take place in separate parts of a collection of countries which have the same sovereign?
If so, then the Melbourne Jazz Festival is also 'British', as is the French Canadian Comedy Festival and the Carnival in Trinidad and the Diwali Lights in Leicester.
I'd hate to think what constitutes your definition of distinctively 'British' culture or customs- the kind of tight arsed mediocre philistinism espoused by Thatcher or the shell suit horror of the Sun readership in full flight.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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See. This is where utilitarian arguments get you.
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That's a good thing sweetie
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My problem is not really with the concept of immigration itself, it is with the scale of it. Go in to many streets in England today and you would think you had been teleported to the middle-east somewhere, there are mosques everywhere and people speaking Arabic. This kind of thing makes me fell sick, if you want to live like an Arab then stay in the Middle East but in England 'do as the English do'.
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I provide they are law abiding. You have yet to explain "why" to us.
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Indeed, but we should try to make them change for the better instead of accepting change that is not beneficial.
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Subjective. There is greater weight of evidence that it is beneficial.
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You can't say exactly what a culture is, but I believe it to be the collection of all our customs and traditions that makes Britain unique in the world.
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If you call that a culture, then it is arbitrary and constantly changing, as it would do if we put a big "keep out" sign over Dover harbour. The principles behind that changing dynamic are the things we should be concentrating on, and those are principles of tolerance and individuality.
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I never voted for Thatcher and I don't read the sun.
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Nick Griffin and the Daily Sport right?
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(Parents car got stolen from the driveway last night and ended up in Liverpool)
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Oh my god! Let's advocate a load of nazis (but shhhh cos labelling them national socialists, which they are will lose them votes) so they can bring back the death penalty so Park Avenues family can see some kid hung drawn and quartered, and Park Avenue can show a pair of picked 15 year old testicles in a guerkin jar to his grandchildren and say "look kids, I'm an idiot" 
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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Because this is Britain not Arabia.
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This is Britain, not Caucasia, so why should we support white people being here?
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But I don't want the country to go in a more liberal direction, yet another reason against multi-culturism.
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Why not? What's wrong with more education, more civil rights, more consideration and more tolerance?
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We'll see...Especially if the Muslims pull off a successful terrorist attack, which I believe is only a matter of time
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Not the muslims, the terrorists. That the terrorists are Muslim does not mean that Muslims are terrorists. Learn you necessary and sufficient conditions, or continue to support the hypothesis that the BNP and its supporters a racist. Know that statements such as yours are only helping your opposing argument and weakening your own position, its basic critical theory.
I don't doubt of course, that if there is another 9/11 here, that people will be scared, they will be angry, they will be emotional, they will be filled with hatred and they will target Muslims, the convenient scapegoat. I don't deny that in such a situation, britain would become like nazi Germany in terms of its attitudes, stoked by people like the BNP. The arbitary nature of popular opinion is part of the reason I don't like to use it for political decisions, but it seems that the BNP and the like are only able to play upon peoples fears, insecurities and lack of education because their actual arguments are so irrational and logically flawed.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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For the last time not all Muslims are Arabs. How do you feel about white Muslims? |
Well I was going to say something along the line of traitors, but I suppose they have a right to believe in whatever religion they want, however I will have no respect for them if they consider themselves Muslim first then British.
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24-04-2004 16:42
I never voted for Thatcher and I don't read the sun.
to the keep out sign.
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