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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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This is Britain, not Caucasia, so why should we support white people being here? |
White people have lived here for thousands of years, we were here first.
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Why not? What's wrong with more education, more civil rights, more consideration and more tolerance? |
There's nothing wrong with more education (as long as it's the right kind of education). Whats wrong with our civil rights now?
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Not the muslims, the terrorists. That the terrorists are Muslim does not mean that Muslims are terrorists. Learn you necessary and sufficient conditions, or continue to support the hypothesis that the BNP and its supporters a racist. Know that statements such as yours are only helping your opposing argument and weakening your own position, its basic critical theory. |
What difference does it make if I say Muslims or Muslim terrorists? They are Muslims.
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I don't doubt of course, that if there is another 9/11 here, that people will be scared, they will be angry, they will be emotional, they will be filled with hatred and they will target Muslims, the convenient scapegoat. |
The Muslims would be targetted because they would be our enemy.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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How about all British Catholics who view the pope above GB? Or Scots who view the Kirk above GB? |
Would you say the Catholics view themselves as Catholic first before British? From the Catholics I've met I would say they didn't, of course it might be different in Scotland.
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Well done on the first change of heart.... but to your latter point; why not? |
I dont believe you should ever be a Muslim who lives in Britain, or a Protestant who lives in Britain. You should be British who is a Protestant, Catholic, Jewish etc.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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So that is why we should, as Whaleboy put it, "support white people being here".
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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White people have lived here for thousands of years, we were here first.
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Territorial schoolboy argument.
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There's nothing wrong with more education (as long as it's the right kind of education). Whats wrong with our civil rights now?
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The right kind of education, I assume you mean editorialising or giving a biased history (the aim of suchandsuch event was good), in which case it is not something that you can define objectively, particularly with something as highly arbitrary as the nature of education, or what people intend to do with it. Where education becomes indoctrination, as you suggest, I say that is malevolent. Education should be more socratic in my opinion, especially when it comes to forming other peoples opinions.
As for civil rights, there are not enough in my view when people wish for more that would not hurt others. Your arguments are like those used to maintain slavery or keep women in the home  .
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What difference does it make if I say Muslims or Muslim terrorists? They are Muslims.
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They're as Muslim as they are human, so are we to call them human terrorists and say the humans are our enemy?
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The Muslims would be targetted because they would be our enemy.
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Do you not think thats crossing a line? Nonetheless, please explain how Islam is Britains enemy?
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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I dont believe you should ever be a Muslim who lives in Britain, or a Protestant who lives in Britain. You should be British who is a Protestant, Catholic, Jewish etc.
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Hardly, that is down to the individual. Religion to a religious person takes on more importance than state allegiance, and not even many nationalists would purport a nation becoming like a religion to its citizens. Fundamentally, when it comes down to belief, a part of someones identity, do we say that one should be more British than their identity, or individual, with their identity first? Needless to say, the greater argument lies with the latter, unless individualism scares you.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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The anscestors of the Welsh lived here for thousands of years before what would become the English immigrated to these islands and drove them into the valleys of Wales. You fully support any Welsh attempt to kick the English out and take back their land, yes? A nice big sign saying "Germanics go home" and educating everyone in the Welsh language? |
Well they could try but they would lose. Why would I support them when I am not welsh?
And weren't the Welsh white.
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Because one can be a Muslim and not be a terrorist. In fact, the vast vast majority of muslims aren't terrorists. By your logic, all Irish are terrorists based on the actions of the IRA. After all, what difference does it make if we say Irish or Irish terrorist? They are Irish. |
When I said Muslims I was obviously talking about terrorists. I don't see anything thing wrong in saying the "The Irish are going to blow up the building" just as I wouldn't be bothered if people said the same thing about British people.
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Territorial schoolboy argument. |
True though.
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As for civil rights, there are not enough in my view when people wish for more that would not hurt others. Your arguments are like those used to maintain slavery or keep women in the home . |
Seriously what civil rights? Do you mean gay rights or something else?
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The right kind of education, I assume you mean editorialising or giving a biased history (the aim of suchandsuch event was good), in which case it is not something that you can define objectively, particularly with something as highly arbitrary as the nature of education, or what people intend to do with it. Where education becomes indoctrination, as you suggest, I say that is malevolent. Education should be more socratic in my opinion, especially when it comes to forming other peoples opinions. |
Well as a nationalist I would like people to be given a more patriotic education and look upon the accomplishments of our ancestors with a little more pride.
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Do you not think thats crossing a line? Nonetheless, please explain how Islam is Britains enemy? |
It is not an enemy at the moment, it is however a threat.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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Hardly, that is down to the individual. Religion to a religious person takes on more importance than state allegiance, and not even many nationalists would purport a nation becoming like a religion to its citizens. |
Yes religion is very important to people but what I'm saying is that just because somebody believes in the same God as you should not make him more important to you than one of your countrymen.
Many muslims believe we are at war with Islam because we have attacked an Islamic country, that is idiotic to say the least, I mean if we were at war with Islam then they would not be alive today. When we were fighting the Italians in ww2 did the Catholics in Britain consider it an attack on them? no because they were British first.
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Lord Merciless
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Sooner or later those ragheads are going to turn the European population against them, then there will be massacres not seen in human history.
Most of the liberals chanting "not all Muslims are terrorists" now will probably be busy helping authorities sending them to death camps.
The only hope for European Muslims is that they stop finding excuses for the terrorists among them and start fighting them.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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Well they could try but they would lose. Why would I support them when I am not welsh?
And weren't the Welsh white.
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So you admit that whether people are white or not is an issue for you?
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When I said Muslims I was obviously talking about terrorists. I don't see anything thing wrong in saying the "The Irish are going to blow up the building" just as I wouldn't be bothered if people said the same thing about British people.
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All of those are woefully fallacious. It is like saying that men have declared war on women because women are killed in suicide explosions, that are mostly the work of men.
Fact-value distinction. Let us assume for the moment that white people were here first (that is technically wrong, since Cromagnon man was here after Homo Neanderthalis, and they were of African appearance), what does it mean? What relevance is it that one group of people were present before another, thousands of years ago, to todays situation?
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Seriously what civil rights? Do you mean gay rights or something else?
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Among others, yes.
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Well as a nationalist I would like people to be given a more patriotic education and look upon the accomplishments of our ancestors with a little more pride.
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I would like nationalism and editorialising to be taken out of education, allowing people to form their own views, and discuss them in a Socratic manner. That means teaching fact, not opinion, though of course one can teach of opinion. One must ask the question of you again, why do you want this?
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It is not an enemy at the moment, it is however a threat.
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A great army of barbaric Muslims rising up to overthrow their civilised white superiors?
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Yes religion is very important to people but what I'm saying is that just because somebody believes in the same God as you should not make him more important to you than one of your countrymen.
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Here we have two things in common, using your assumptions not mine of course. The nation and the god. We are thus forced to compare them. Religious people may believe their God to be omnipotent, wise, eternal. Do we say the same of a nation? Can we deny that the Ten Commandments, for example, exude a greater sense of conceptual purity than the manifesto of the BNP? While I am against people using identity as a reason to consider some more important than another, there is a greater argument for religion to be that distinction than a nation. Nonetheless, we do not all retreat behind the fallacious barrier of patriotism.
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When we were fighting the Italians in ww2 did the Catholics in Britain consider it an attack on them? no because they were British first.
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That can be attributed to a sense of shared identity with those that are being attacked. The reasons for that cannot be attributed to some inherent fault in Islam. It is my opinion that the sense of brotherhood that Muslims feel for their fellow Muslims is a thoroughly positive thing, and I share the sentiment of many Muslims that I know, that for both theological and philosophical reasons, that should be extended to all humans regardless of nation or belief. There is a growing movement in Islam to make that so.
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Sooner or later those ragheads are going to turn the European population against them, then there will be massacres not seen in human history.
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If it does happen, it would be because of people like the BNP, and it is in fact the liberals who would stop them. A somewhat extreme prediction of doom don't you think Lord Merciless?
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Lord Merciless
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Originally posted by Starchild
Now this gets my goat. One of the greatest things a modern state can aim for is giving people a balanced education neither for nor against an argument and let the people themselves come to a conclusion. What would a patriotic education do? Focus only on the good bits that don't require much moral debate? Yeah, the UK has made great advances in science, engineering, culture, society, etc. At the same time it's committed great injustices against the rest of the world. Our actions should not be displayed in a positive light. They should not be displayed in a negative light. They should be displayed and let the shadows fall where they may.
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The leftist education of the last 30 years basically trashed people's confidence in their own culture. It's time for this foolishness to end.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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So you admit that whether people are white or not is an issue for you? |
Yes but not on a personal level.
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Fact-value distinction. Let us assume for the moment that white people were here first (that is technically wrong, since Cromagnon man was here after Homo Neanderthalis, and they were of African appearance), what does it mean? What relevance is it that one group of people were present before another, thousands of years ago, to todays situation? |
Because we are here now. The British people should not have another culture forced upon us against our will. There was a BBC programme about asylum a few months ago where they asked the public to vote on whether 10 people(I think) should be allowed asylum in Britain and all of them were rejected, of course there was a bunch of leftist politicians in the studio and they all said to allow every single case, shows how in touch with the public they were  .
And you really think that allowing people in from Africa and the Middle East a lot of are religious fundamentalists is going to improve civil rights?
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Now this gets my goat. One of the greatest things a modern state can aim for is giving people a balanced education neither for nor against an argument and let the people themselves come to a conclusion. What would a patriotic education do? Focus only on the good bits that don't require much moral debate? Yeah, the UK has made great advances in science, engineering, culture, society, etc. At the same time it's committed great injustices against the rest of the world. Our actions should not be displayed in a positive light. They should not be displayed in a negative light. They should be displayed and let the shadows fall where they may. |
The education system that we have now is biased against Britain, people are coming out of schools thinking that they need to be ashamed of what their country did in the past
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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The leftist education of the last 30 years basically trashed people's confidence in their own culture. It's time for this foolishness to end.
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Leftist education? We're taught an egocentric history of the empire, and we hypocritically glorify the historic liberals that made society what it is today, while we demonise the same people today. We teach a victors version of both World Wars, even use the memories of the dead for nationalistic causes (I wear the white poppy, not the red one) and the vainglorious history of the Falklands I learned is woefully out of step with my former neighbour who was actually there. Confidence in your own culture is a very dangerous thing, where we think of it in emotional, not logical terms. Hasn't Socrates influenced you in any way?
Last edited by Whaleboy on 29-04-2004 at 00:59
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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Yes but not on a personal level.
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Go on...
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Because we are here now. The British people should not have another culture forced upon us against our will.
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That would be regarded as war, and if it is legal, and non-violent, then it is not a war and thus not against ones will. Like I said earlier, simply environmental. A culture of course is merely an abstraction of abstractions, so its imposition is almost a contradiction in terms!
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there was a bunch of leftist politicians in the studio and they all said to allow every single case, shows how in touch with the public they were .
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I dont deny that popular opinion is against my argument. However, that makes my, and my concurrers no less correct. Unfortunately for liberals, the arguments of populists like the BNP are perfectly attuned to play upon the uneducated fears, insecurities and general lack of knowledge of the people concerned, so unless one has a background in the fields relevant to these issues, then one is unlikely to comprehend the arguments for immigration, and thus revert back to a simplistic notion of cultural hegemony, such as is proposed by the national socialists.
You called those politicians leftists, but I would suggest that they are economically more free market than the BNP, since the BNP are highly communist. They certainly give the BCP and SWP a run for their money in terms of economics!
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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I dont deny that popular opinion is against my argument. However, that makes my, and my concurrers no less correct. Unfortunately for liberals, the arguments of populists like the BNP are perfectly attuned to play upon the uneducated fears, insecurities and general lack of knowledge of the people concerned, so unless one has a background in the fields relevant to these issues, then one is unlikely to comprehend the arguments for immigration, and thus revert back to a simplistic notion of cultural hegemony, such as is proposed by the national socialists. |
The British people are, by you're own admission, are against letting in asylum seekers so it's time for the politicians to truly represent the people on this one. And you expect people not to feel angry the politicians selling them out?
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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You called those politicians leftists, but I would suggest that they are economically more free market than the BNP, since the BNP are highly communist. They certainly give the BCP and SWP a run for their money in terms of economics! |
They were still leftist though, I think most of them were labour.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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The British people are, by you're own admission, are against letting in asylum seekers so it's time for the politicians to truly represent the people on this one. And you expect people not to feel angry the politicians selling them out?
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I somehow doubt the capacity of a large populus to be able to decide in a reasoned, considered and educated way its sociological condition, considering that that is a highly complex issue that ranges across disciplines as diverse as ethics and economics. The British people also, if I recall correctly, seek such ridiculi as the reinstatement of the death penalty, and probably wouldn't mind too much if someone wanted to rebuild the empire! A nation, of course, should not be run upon nationalistic or populistic concerns. Would you run a school on the consensus of its students? Unless we educate people to be experts in all the required disciplines to forge a considered opinion on these matters, I'll trust people that know what they're talking about to make the decision over some random bloke on the street anyday!
However, I doubt you could support your charge that the politicians do not consider the British people at all, nor that they have "sold out" in a general sense (ignoring the PPP here of course  ).
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They were still leftist though, I think most of them were labour.
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Labour is, economically speaking, a fair distance past centre in the direction of the right. The BNP are at the far left of the economic spectrum, they appear to be at the border of socialism and communism.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Confidence in your own culture is a very dangerous thing, where we think of it in emotional, not logical terms. Hasn't Socrates influenced you in any way? |
Confidence is better than self-loathing.
While many Brits, like you, feel so ashamed about your country and culture because of the brain-washing you went through, I still consider Britain as the nation that has the greatest contribution to humankind over the last 400 years.
It was Britain that laid foundation to capitalism, representative (not mob) democracy, industrialization, and countless scientific advances. The mistakes made during colonization were quite pale compared to the achievements, and yet leftists blew those mistakes totally out of proportion in your textbooks.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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Confidence is better than self-loathing.
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I somehow doubt that there is a proportional relationship between prozac consumption and the number of flags in ones vicinity. Not that I'd complain of course .
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While many Brits, like you, feel so ashamed about your country and culture because of the brain-washing you went through, I still consider Britain as the nation that has the greatest contribution to humankind over the last 400 years.
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Where did I say I was ashamed? Some events perhaps but not in general.
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It was Britain that laid foundation to capitalism, representative (not mob) democracy, industrialization, and countless scientific advances. The mistakes made during colonization were quite pale compared to the achievements, and yet leftists blew those mistakes totally out of proportion in your textbooks.
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I take a rational view to the history of the British isles. These events happened, some were benevolent, some malevolent, all of which conspired to create the world today. Basic determinism. I don't take an emotional view about it, I don't feel pride, I don't feel distate. I feel indifferent, except at the atrocities, but then, atrocities and war are the engine of change, so overall, the notion of good, bad, pride, distate, is somewhat meaningless.
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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Allowing the britsh public to decide on individual claims is mob rule. |
When did I say I wanted that? I was just using it as an example of how British people feel about asylum seekers.
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I suppose you would have advocated not allowing in Jews from europe during ww2. |
The Jews were Europeans, so I would have had no problem with letting them in.
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Oh and please tell me where you get your info on large number of people being religious fundamentalists, being a muslim does mean you are a danger to anyone. |
I would say 99% of the people in countries like saudi Arabia are religious fundamentalists, because of their education and propoganda.
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28-04-2004 20:02
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