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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Cali: Multiculturalism as a concept is sound in my opinion. In practise it is flawed, because it effectively creates ghettos and exacerbated tensions. On a local level of course it's fine, for example areas of good integration but that isn't occuring fast enough.
What is called for imo is not the end of multiculturalism, but rather a change in its practise. |
The problem (as I see it) with multiculturalism is that it tends to involve a mixture that is forced - diversity for the sake of diversity. I'm not totally against any kind of mixture of cultures, I just think it should be a lot more well thought out. If western countries chose only the best representatives of foreign cultures as immigrants then friction between groups would be greatly reduced.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Hmm I don't think that's the solution though I concur with the problems. I think educating immigrants in a socratic manner is the best answer, as opposed to simply assimilating them. |
It's not necessarily that we completely assimilate them (although they must be prepared to live in accordance with our laws and customs). In order for western peoples to receive the full benefits of what other cultures have to offer, the emmisaries of other cultures should be the best specimens available.
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I also feel that the West needs greater education in the ways of other cultures. The question of immigration should most certainly be better thought out, instead of simply dumping them about randomly and expecting them to integrate into a hostile host-nation. |
I agree. It's already difficult enough to introduce people to new cultures without the added friction of dealing with degenerates. How is anyone supposed to appreciate another culture if they only see it in the context of social problems?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Certainly not. You're just convinced that they're less law-abiding in general and are worried about them as a group, and this is based on certain incidents that affected you in those racially diverse areas, right? |
Um...sort of. We seem to be blurring the line between foreigners and different races. I wouldn't call black Americans "foreigners" - in fact I am the foreigner around here.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
It's not necessarily that we completely assimilate them (although they must be prepared to live in accordance with our laws and customs). In order for western peoples to receive the full benefits of what other cultures have to offer, the emmisaries of other cultures should be the best specimens available.
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They must be educated to obey the law, and use the freedoms granted by this society, in something of an existentialist sense the notion of responsibility of freedom, including the potency of its use (free speech). As for customs, I disagree. If you educate them in a particular way of life, then you are assimilating them, which will fail in a blaze of fury. Educating them about the variant set of British customs however, is a more productive approach in my opinion.
The idea of specimen in my opinion is too subjective, since the benefits of cultural diversity have to be two way, on the sociological level that is. Furthermore, since integration occurs on the individual level (we can only measure it on the sociological), we have to consider each individual as equal. I'm not about to stratify people if they are not citizens of a particular nation.
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I agree. It's already difficult enough to introduce people to new cultures without the added friction of dealing with degenerates. How is anyone supposed to appreciate another culture if they only see it in the context of social problems?
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The "degenerates" are on both sides, and are, in my opinion, symptomatic of a bad multicultural policy, that further help to worsen the situation. Examples include a small number of fanatical Muslims, and the BNP.
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I would, based on my reading on the subject and the opinions of my ex-forces friends (Irish Guards, Signals and RAF, if you're interested). Overwhelmingly white, with unquestioning obedience being an embedded value, etc.
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It helps when you're paid to kill...
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This is paranoid nonsense. Get outside of the cities and you'll barely see any coloured faces- Britain is overwhelmingly white. In any event, how many black or Asian people do you see burning flags? You're frothing at the attitudes of a tiny minority of a minority.
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Agreed, a few people swept up in anger at their perceived oppression, in a Lord of the Flies -type situation does not represent one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
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Like voting, for example?
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Derekrage
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Newcastle Upon Tyne
May 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
I would, based on my reading on the subject and the opinions of my ex-forces friends (Irish Guards, Signals and RAF, if you're interested). Overwhelmingly white, with unquestioning obedience being an embedded value, etc. |
I would like to know how on earth you came to the conclusion that I have had a sheltered life. What the hell is a sheltered life anyway? If you mean that I have been sheltered away from multi-culturism then you are wrong. The high school that I went to had a hell of a lot of arabs and blacks, which was extremely rare at the time especially in the North East.
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This is paranoid nonsense. Get outside of the cities and you'll barely see any coloured faces- Britain is overwhelmingly white. In any event, how many black or Asian people do you see burning flags? You're frothing at the attitudes of a tiny minority of a minority. |
Paranoid? Maybe... Nonsence? No. I have seen the effects of a segragated society in Northern Ireland and it ain't pretty. No matter how much you are in favour of multi-culturism, you have to admit that some people are not being assimilated, this is leading to a ghettho like system in some areas. The only way to stop this spreading is put into effect a 'keep out' policy on immigration, this is the only sure way of making sure that a Northern Ireland situation does not appear in British cities. Now I know that there is a lot of arabs and africans etc. living here now, but with an education campaign focused on making them more British, not trying to make the majority adapt to their cultures, then this idea of multi-culturism will slowly die anyway.
Why is that not a preferable solution? The people already here will not be oppressed in anyway at all, it alleviates some British people's fears(like me ) that white people will become a minority within Britain in the decades to come and it will put an end to the fears of the minorities that a Nazi like government will be elected.
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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A state, with a population contained with a specified geographical location, laws applying throughout that nation and a government recognised as a political entity by itself and others.
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Paranoid? Maybe... Nonsence? No. I have seen the effects of a segragated society in Northern Ireland and it ain't pretty. No matter how much you are in favour of multi-culturism, you have to admit that some people are not being assimilated, this is leading to a ghettho like system in some areas.
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I don't think it's a case of either/or. Assimilation is not an option because many will not want to submit, nor would you if the situation were reversed. Mutual education so all are better able to understand each other, so to speak, is a simple premise for any notion of communication.
A keep-out policy would only serve to alienate the people that are already here, not to mention negate the many advantages of a properly implimented multi-cultural policy.
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Now I know that there is a lot of arabs and africans etc. living here now, but with an education campaign focused on making them more British, not trying to make the majority adapt to their cultures, then this idea of multi-culturism will slowly die anyway.
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You have immediately now set up your proposal to failure, since humans will not submit to such a thing.
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Why is that not a preferable solution? The people already here will not be oppressed in anyway at all
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But they will. You put a keep-out sign on the door, the people here will be hostile to those they think got in before the door closed.
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it alleviates some British people's fears(like me ) that white people will become a minority within Britain in the decades to come and it will put an end to the fears of the minorities that a Nazi like government will be elected.
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Current trends would not continue and white people would continue to be a majority, though there would be larger minorities. I have no problem whatsoever with that, and still fail to see why I should. Perhaps you could explain?
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it will put an end to the fears of the minorities that a Nazi like government will be elected
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The BNP or Nazism... some choice 
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
They must be educated to obey the law, and use the freedoms granted by this society, in something of an existentialist sense the notion of responsibility of freedom, including the potency of its use (free speech). As for customs, I disagree. If you educate them in a particular way of life, then you are assimilating them, which will fail in a blaze of fury. Educating them about the variant set of British customs however, is a more productive approach in my opinion. |
It really depends on the age of the individuals being brought over. If they are young they will be far more likely to assimilate. Older immigrants, however, will have already assumed the culture of their home country.
Perhaps I should give an example of what I mean when I say they should be expected to live in accordance with the customs of the surrogate nation. For instance, immigrants to the USA should be aware that it is the custom to leave a tip at a restaurant. It's not good enough for them to say "that's not how it works where I come from", they must conform to the generally accepted customs of their new home.
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The idea of specimen in my opinion is too subjective, since the benefits of cultural diversity have to be two way, on the sociological level that is. Furthermore, since integration occurs on the individual level (we can only measure it on the sociological), we have to consider each individual as equal. I'm not about to stratify people if they are not citizens of a particular nation. |
Don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to consider candidates for immigration as equally valuable when they clearly aren't? It's a fact that some countries provide more skilled individuals than others, so why wouldn't you encourage more immigrants from countries that have provided these in the past? Of course you still need to consider every individual on their merits, but it would be foolish not to spend the govt resources that have been allocated to immigration in the areas that yield the best results.
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The "degenerates" are on both sides, and are, in my opinion, symptomatic of a bad multicultural policy, that further help to worsen the situation. Examples include a small number of fanatical Muslims, and the BNP. |
Of course there are degenerates on both sides, but we are talking about immigrants, are we not?
If immigration policy was more selective, I think we can agree that there would be far less for groups like the BNP to complain about.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Please define that, unless you believe a nation to be comprised of a race, which is diabolically problematic. |
Define what? Foreigners?
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
Yes. Without Islam it would never have been planned.
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Without oxygen it would never have been planned. That is the same chain of reasoning that you are using. Of course, Muslims are an easier target for you
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Perhaps I should give an example of what I mean when I say they should be expected to live in accordance with the customs of the surrogate nation. For instance, immigrants to the USA should be aware that it is the custom to leave a tip at a restaurant. It's not good enough for them to say "that's not how it works where I come from", they must conform to the generally accepted customs of their new home.
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To use that example, they should be told that that is the custom, but given the same freedom to do so, or not, that people that are already here have. These people are still adults.
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Don't you think it's a bit unrealistic to consider candidates for immigration as equally valuable when they clearly aren't?
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I never said that. What I am saying is that we shouldnt accept them on the basis of value, since, such is the nature of the individual, we cannot know it, much less quantify it to the degree required to do what you suggest. However, its the kind of thing you can qualify to some degree AFTER education.
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Of course there are degenerates on both sides, but we are talking about immigrants, are we not?
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I'm talking about the solution to the problems of multiculturalism, to which immigration is a part, but considerations of the "natives" and the immigrants is key.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
To use that example, they should be told that that is the custom, but given the same freedom to do so, or not, that people that are already here have. These people are still adults. |
Obviously they will have the freedom to make their own choices, but they should be expected to follow generally accepted customs.
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I never said that. What I am saying is that we shouldnt accept them on the basis of value, since, such is the nature of the individual, we cannot know it, much less quantify it to the degree required to do what you suggest. However, its the kind of thing you can qualify to some degree AFTER education. |
You don't think we can know the value of an individual wrt their prospects of success as an immigrant? Of course we can!
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I'm talking about the solution to the problems of multiculturalism, to which immigration is a part, but considerations of the "natives" and the immigrants is key. |
True.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Look at what you wrote. "Foreigners" and race. |
I, as a white New Zealander in New York, am a foreigner. The black people I work with who were born and raised here are not foreigners, but they are of a different race.
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20-04-2004 17:13
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