01-05-2004 04:41									#271
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Gaian punishment is much more subtle and nasty the nerve stapling:

* Having your exercise instructor changed to the Spartan GIRT (whose intelligence is indicated by his sloping forehead and dragging knuckles) instead of the Gaian Marla, for whom ‘give me 20’ has more than one meaning
* Forced to watch the Hivean tour de force: Keeping the Feeding Den Clean
* Being promoted to ambassador to the Morganites, and instructed to listen in rapt attention to their endless droning on the joys of boreholes
* Being denied the hand-prepared Chiron Pear Flambé, and being given the Spartan delicacy synthgruel instead
* Telling the nearest Believer that you’ve always admired Miriam’s true beauty, and that your truest wish is to take the Lord God as your personal savior
* Attending a University symposium on proper Mindworm dissection techniques

	01-05-2004 08:24									#272
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Lord Darsnan! Welcome!

* The Gaians dance around the trees.

	01-05-2004 09:59									#273
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Googlie lowers his MorganVision 3D Binoculars somewhat embarrassedly after observing Darsnan and Hydro cavorting naked among the pines

	01-05-2004 10:19									#274
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All the jiggling would be somewhat offputting I guess.

	01-05-2004 15:38									#275
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OK, I haven't heard back from anyone yet regarding access to Gaian forums or what the general consensus is to date regarding the direction our Faction should take. I am going to be OOT till Sunday afternoon EST. If someone in authority here can PM me and give me a general rundown of the direction our Faction is taking, I'd appreciate it.
Also, one thing I'd like to bring up for discussion immediately is what starting units is everyone receiving for the next ACDG? Because the Gaians are in this game, and we have Centauri Ecology (which is our natural advantage), then I think all the other Factions should start without Formers, just as they would in a regular SP game. Can someone here take charge of this and ensure that this is indeed the case for the next ACDG?
Look forward to working with everyone, and see you in 1.5 days!


D

	01-05-2004 15:56									#276
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Darsnan,

I just PMed you the info obstructor sent me. Hopefully you'll have better luck.

Now, with regards to formers. I STRENUOUSLY object if the other factions get formers to start. This is, after all, a Gaian advantage. It also is a HUGE boon for momentum players or development challenged factions (like Hive or Believers), who can then b-line for impact (since they really don't need anything else in the way of development besides CE). This can set non-Gaians ahead by 10+ years, and force everyone else to make impact b-lines, too.

If everyone gets CE (or formers, which they can then build, meaning they don't need CE) then the Gaians need to get some other significant tech that makes up for their major loss. I would suggest Industrial Automation, or Planetary Networks. Not that I'm biased, of course.

Hydro

	01-05-2004 15:59									#277
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Might it help if the Gaians got more formers to start with?

	01-05-2004 16:41									#278
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No, it would not. More formers are irrelevant: I am objecting to taking away the Gaian's initial advantage by gifting CE to the other factions. If the other factions value CE so much then they can modify their precious b-lines to get CE ASAP and divert their plans for global conquest by a decade or so.

Again, giving CE or formers (which is the same thing) to the other factions means the Gaians get hosed. I recommend that the other factions start out as in SP with no CE or formers: if they can live without formers in SP, then they can here, too. With directed research they can overcome this with minimal effort; if not they need some remedial SMAC guidance and should read Vel's instructive strat guide.

If the Gaians are going to be hosed then significant compensation is required. A single or even several former (worth 20 minerals - big deal) does not cut it.

Is it common to hose the Gaians in PBEM or Democracy games by gifting their starting tech to the other factions? Frankly, I'm surprised the other factions think they are so weak they need CE from the start, especially when DR is used.

I'm in this for role playing, btw. As such, I'm not as concerned about 'fairness'. If 'fairness' is an issue then remove the Gaian restriction on using FM. Change it to a prohibition on "Power", which is almost useless (imho). That would even out the 'fairness' issue, I would think.

Hydro

	01-05-2004 17:09									#279
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Though personally I don't see it necessary for everyone to have CentEco from the start - it is after all indeed a Gaian advantage - I would prefer that every faction can pick CentEco as their first tech to research, without the mod3 rule interfering.

	01-05-2004 17:47									#280
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Not 100% sure, but....

The research Minute Mirage did showed that the mod3 rule comes into play after the first tech is researched or from the CMN adjusting the techs.

So allowing players to choose their first research tech without the mod3 restriction should be fine.

Need to double check that with Minute Mirage though, or conduct some of your own research.

	01-05-2004 17:55									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Kody The research Minute Mirage did showed that the mod3 rule comes into play after the first tech is researched or from the CMN adjusting the techs.

IIRC CMNs give factions their techs manually though, so the prblem would then still remain I guess. Anyway, I haven't investigated it myself. I just remember reading once somewhere that HongHu was playing as the Hive in a PBEM set up by Darsnan, and that she couldn't choose CentEcol as her first tech. So I assume this is a real problem.

	01-05-2004 17:58									#282
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A couple of points:

I don't think anyone from the other factions is expecting formers (only happened in the current game 'cos the gaians weren't in it, and to give the teamplayers something to discuss in the early turns)

And in my CMN games I don't give formers when the Gaians are a team (with the exception of one I just set up with Darsnan in it, and I specifically asked him if he wanted to forego that advantage - he did)

re: tech choices - I've only seen it happen with the UoP (and it happens every time) where when it's given Infotechs as its faction tech, and then scenario started for password setting, only 4 choices are given for the free tech and cent ecol isn't one of them. the workaround is to give them cent ecol as the startv tech, then infotechs comes up as one of the choices.

I've never seen it denied other factions as a first tech to research (but that's not to say it's never happened to others)

G.

Last edited by Googlie on 01-05-2004 at 18:04

	01-05-2004 23:48									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac IIRC CMNs give factions their techs manually though, so the prblem would then still remain I guess. Anyway, I haven't investigated it myself. I just remember reading once somewhere that HongHu was playing as the Hive in a PBEM set up by Darsnan, and that she couldn't choose CentEcol as her first tech. So I assume this is a real problem.

Maniac is right that in one of my Pbem I wasn't able to choose CentEcol as first tech. I was Hive and we had some changes in alpha.txt I think. For example everybody was able to build sea colony pod without flexibility. I imagine if we are not going to alter the alpha.txt much, this situation should not appear, hopefully. However I would like the CMN to make sure that this indeed does not happen.

As whether everybody should get a former, I strongly believe that the answer should be negative. CentEcol is the Gaians starting tech and its benefit is formers. Giving formers to other factions almost equate to giving a faction's starting tech to other faction, only if the unit rather than the tech is given then the tech cost is lower.

That said, I do not think this would be a problem because so far I am not aware anybody suggesting that formers should be given to everybody. AFAIK this is not normal pbem practise either, especially when Gaian is one of the factions. I would appreciate if anybody think differently let us know as soon as possible, otherwise we could view this as a settled question.

	01-05-2004 23:51									#284
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Gaians grow. And after initial low signup it will be a very strong faction soon.

Is really Centauri Ecology so big advantage, that all other factions would have to have one former from the start?
----
Just I think that should be bonus for Gaians. I often do not choose Cent.Eco as first tech. It all depends which faction I play and the terrain around

	02-05-2004 01:00									#285
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And obstructor was worried about having a weak team...

	02-05-2004 01:17									#286
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mart7x5 – the reason I’m concerned is that if you give a unit to a faction they can then build that unit without having the tech, which in this case is Centauri Ecology.

In a recent PBEM game I was Morgan, and I was very irritated that the Cyborgs had decided to incorporate me forcibly into their logical empire. They showed up with impact rovers and infantry and were **ahem** upset when I bribed them away (it was the best 150 megacredits I ever spent!). As a result, I could then build impact rovers and infantry without having Nonlinear Mathematics. The same situation will be true if formers are given to every faction – they will then be able to build formers without restriction. In effect, they will have the benefits of Centauri Ecology without having to take the time to research the tech.

If I understand folks here then this is a non-issue since formers will not be given to other factions.

Hydro

	02-05-2004 01:42									#287
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Umm... that's true for bribing, but I've never been able to build nor design formers unless I have cent ec. It's something to do with the whole bribing/gifting process... but just finding a unit (ie. rover pods, chopper pods, or transport pods) doesn't mean you can suddenly build then. Likewise if everybody starts the game with a 6-6-2 you're not going to be able to build more of them, unless you bribe an oppoent's.

	02-05-2004 03:35									#288
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quote: mart7x5 – the reason I’m concerned is that if you give a unit to a faction they can then build that unit without having the tech, which in this case is Centauri Ecology.

I believe, there's a subroutine that checks to see if the new unit is a default unit or already in the design workshop. That's to prevent multiple designs of the same kind being in the workshop. When getting a former it is a default unit and hence isn't added to the design workshop. So you can't build more without getting ecology.

This works the same for custom built units that a CMN gifts to people. They can't build more if it's one of the default units in the alphax.txt.

Formers ofcourse are one of those default units.

	02-05-2004 03:43									#289
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I don't think that CE or formers should be spread around to all factions. Basically every team could ask then for the initial 'benefit' of every faction, hence imagine that everyone can construct probes, rovers and formers + having 110 ec's as start up capital.

While formers are a strong unit to start building up your empire, the others are basically evenly matched for their purpose, IMHO.

In short, I think this should be a non-issue

	02-05-2004 05:47									#290
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quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash And obstructor was worried about having a weak team...

Yeah, where IS Obs? In some kind of elated ecstasy in the trees somewhere, I suppose.

	02-05-2004 05:53									#291
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Yeah, where IS Obs? In some kind of elated ecstasy in the trees somewhere, I suppose.

He's probably banned. I got a PM from him this noon that he can only PM and no longer post. I advised him to contact the moderators to ask what's the matter, but I haven't heard of him there after.

	02-05-2004 08:41									#292
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Maybe they launched a new round of bannings over bounced emails. Rasputin has disappeared since last night too.

	02-05-2004 09:33									#293
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What are "bounced e-mails"?

	02-05-2004 14:31									#294
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Unpostable emails when subscribed to a thread, I think.

IIRC, Happens when someone is subscribed to a thread that interests him (receives a mail everytime someone posts in that thread, but his emailprovider or inbox refuses to accept those mails due to his mailbox setup.

	02-05-2004 17:22									#295
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More likely that one's email is out of date, so when that message is sent it bounces (no such email).

Update your profiled emails!

	02-05-2004 21:13									#296
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Or because he uploaded a supposedly non-game related file.

	02-05-2004 21:41									#297
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I've been 'banned' due to the whole e-mail bouncing thing... what really got my goat was that it was an accurate e-mail, so it was something wrong with their end... took quite a while to get put back on (of course, that's me being addicted to 'poly talking... so it was more like about one weekend...)

	03-05-2004 04:38									#298
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Well I hope they don't ever ban me for something silly like that - I'm paying them for Poly!

	03-05-2004 05:44									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I don't think anyone from the other factions is expecting formers (only happened in the current game 'cos the gaians weren't in it, and to give the teamplayers something to discuss in the early turns). And in my CMN games I don't give formers when the Gaians are a team. G.

That is very good to hear, indeed! I think if the shoe were on the other foot (i.e. if other teams were getting a free Probe Team, or a free Scout Rover) the appropriate Factions would have been b1tching, as well.

quote: Originally posted by Hydro mart7x5 – the reason I’m concerned is that if you give a unit to a faction they can then build that unit without having the tech, which in this case is Centauri Ecology.

This isn't true in the case of a CMN giving initial units to a Faction. In this case the Factions cannot build anything other than what their initial techs allow them to build, regardless of what a CMN has initially given them. FYI in case you get involved in future PBEM's.
My root concern for bringing the subject of free Formers up is that in some games I CMN I give as many as 3 free Formers to each Faction. Considering that each of our Factions in the next ACDG will probably start with as many as 3 CP's each, then the Gaian strategy of xoxoxoxooxoxoxoxoxooxoxoxoxoxooxoxoxox oxooxoxoxooxooxoxoxoxooxx (edited out by Gaian Military censors) would be defeated!


D

	03-05-2004 06:35									#300
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Treatise on the Formation of a Symbiotic Relationship with Planet
Part Two: the Conscious/ Subconscious Parallax
By Dr. David Suzuki, Gaian Chief of Natural Sciences

If the Gaian concept of becoming one with this world and imprinting our ideals and beliefs onto the very being of a planet are to be realized, we must first understand ourselves.
If the casual human is observed during the course of a typical day's interactions, it can be seen that the Subconsciousness is continually active, through controlling the respiration process in response to exhertion, to glandular actions such as salivation and liver enzyme flows, to digestion, and finally the maintenance of the 4 - 10 hour sleep period each day, it can be seen that the Subconscious plays a major, if not dominant roll in the life of an individual.

And so then how do we categorize the Consciousness of an individual? Is it the "Controller", always in charge of our actions, or is our Consciousness only allowed to operate under a strict set of tenets set forth by our real masters, the Subconsciousness? For how many times in each day can it be seen that an individuals "reflexes", or "reactions" take charge in a situation, completely casting aside the authority of the Consciousness in favour of the Subconsciousness's decision making process?

Or is there a third option where two sentient beings view the world through the same set of sensory organs: one Conscious, the other Subconscious, and the individuals resultant actions then being determined by how their environment is percieved?

By delving into this introspective realm the Gaians hope to ascertain the truth behind the Conscious/ Subconscious Parallax, and use this knowldge to springboard forward their understanding of a planet, and of achieving a Greater Gaia in result.

Dr. David Suzuki
Gaian Chief of Natural Sciences

Last edited by Darsnan on 03-05-2004 at 07:01