18-04-2004 00:01									#31
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc There's this wonderful thing called telecommunications. Perhaps you've heard of it.

Not nearly as effective I would have thought. And how charasmatic/powerful can a voice from a cellphone be?

quote: Now since the Hamas leadership residing in Syria & Lebanon seems to be safe from any sort of Israeli retaliation

Oh?

	18-04-2004 00:01									#32
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quote: There's this wonderful thing called telecommunications. Perhaps you've heard of it. Now since the Hamas leadership residing in Syria & Lebanon seems to be safe from any sort of Israeli retaliation, I fail to see how the organization is adrift and leaderless.

Yes I've heard of those. Still doesn't mean Mash'al can command terrorist attacks using long distance calls, or that he will.

	18-04-2004 00:02									#33
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I think that if we weaken Hamas a bit more, Dahlan will finally grow some balls and take control of Gaza.

	18-04-2004 00:12									#34
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quote: What do you think, that Hamas and IJ here can send men to Syria ? The training camps are for Hamas and IJ personel in Syria.

From what I remember reading in newspapers, you are wrong.

Furthermore, Hamas and IJ did send people trained in Syria to Israel on missions.

Including those who exploded in a Tel Aviv Jazz Club on the sea-side.

	18-04-2004 00:24									#35
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Your single example only illustrates my point. How much people can Hamas send abroad? the number is very low.

	18-04-2004 00:29									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: How many dead bystanders? none.

Were his bodyguard and son terrorists too?

	18-04-2004 00:30									#37
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Bodyguard - guilt by association.

How old was the son?

	18-04-2004 00:34									#38
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guilt is irrelevant. This is an act of war, not of justice ( though it is just) . It wasn't an execution, it was the killing of a member of a chain of command of an enemy.

	18-04-2004 00:36									#39
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Do you have an answer? How old was the son?

	18-04-2004 00:40									#40
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no, can't find it anywhere.

	18-04-2004 00:40									#41
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27 (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c...1437EDT0561.DTL)

I condemn all violence, including this. So
Israel's making damned sure they leave Gaza in complete anarchy.

	18-04-2004 00:43									#42
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How does it matter? And what if he wasn't in the Hamas? would his age matter? killing adults ain't any better than killing kids, and in both cases, it would still be justified.

	18-04-2004 00:43									#43
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27? Fair game.

	18-04-2004 00:45									#44
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Azazel - I have no love for Hamas. Kill them all and those that associate with them. However, if Israel were to target a Hamas leader KNOWING a child was in the vehicle I may have a problem. 27 years old is not a child and he obviously made his own decisions. Ditto for the bodyguard.

	18-04-2004 00:49									#45
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Like I've said before, I can't take any joy from a death of another human.

However, I think that if you strive and become a leader of HAMAS, enemy of Israel, then you have accepted the risk of getting killed by the IDF. Comes with the job description. Also this considerably weakens HAMAS, as there is a new doctrine implemented, which is to kill the new leader ASAP. Difficult to organize when the leader is always killed and you need a new guy. Of course this could also cause them to go more underground and more difficult to follow.

	18-04-2004 00:50									#46
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I don't see it this way. What if he was just taking a ride with his dad? It's besides the point, it really is.

	18-04-2004 00:51									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I don't see it this way. What if he was just taking a ride with his dad? It's besides the point, it really is.

So we understand each other....

If the son was a minor (pick an age) and out for a ride with nasty dad.... you think it is OK to do them both?

	18-04-2004 00:52									#48
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quote: However, I think that if you strive and become a leader of HAMAS, enemy of Israel, then you have accepted the risk of getting killed by the IDF. Comes with the job description.

precisely. It would be just as stupid if Israel claimed an assassination of a general to be a war crime. ( unless, of course, the assassin was unmarked ).

	18-04-2004 00:54									#49
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Who is going to try and step up to be next?

	18-04-2004 00:55									#50
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"We will all die one day. Nothing will change. If by Apache or by cardiac arrest, I prefer Apache."
Abdel Aziz Rantisi.

I have to respect that. A courageous man.

	18-04-2004 00:57									#51
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....and he got his wish. Gotta love win-win situations.

	18-04-2004 01:01									#52
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quote: If the son was a minor (pick an age) and out for a ride with nasty dad.... you think it is OK to do them both?

Ok, let me use a hyperbole here, to illustrate a point.

HITLER is on a ride with his... son. Let's pretend, for the argument's sake, that he has a son. an allied fighter pilot/ communist partisan with an anti tank weapon/ someone else with a large impact weapon, sees them in their car. He knows that there is an innocent kid inside. Do you think he shouldn't take a shot? Now I agree that one should try and not kill the kid, if possible, but you DON'T have that luxury.

quote: I have to respect that. A courageous man.

2/10, the 2 points being for the outstanding inflammatory value. Courage is making an ethical act while taking a risk. He ain't courageous.

	18-04-2004 01:01									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Wezil So we understand each other.... If the son was a minor (pick an age) and out for a ride with nasty dad.... you think it is OK to do them both?

I would say yes. Otherwise terrorist leaders could make themselves immune by surrounding themselves with sons, daughters, nieces, nephews, and cousins.

How much negative reaction was there to the US/UK bombing of Tripoli when Kadhafi's daugther was killed in the air strike?

	18-04-2004 01:01									#54
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I think it's more of a lose-lose situation.

	18-04-2004 01:03									#55
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Of course you do, dear. If you didn't, you wouldn;t be the loon we all love so well.

	18-04-2004 01:06									#56
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Hey, in the battle for hearts and minds in the Middle East, Osama bin Laden is winning. There's no doubt about it.

One way of minimizing support for his point of view is to do something that appears (but not necessarily is) even handed on the Palestine question.

OBL has tried to point out time and time again that the US is conducting a war on Muslims (well Arabs really, but the religious language serves him better). Now the US has invaded an Arab country for no worthwhile reason and has finally explicitly endorsed an anti-Arab policy in Palestine.

More and more Arabs will be looking at the facts and becoming more sympathetic to his (frankly bizarre) ideas. That means more terrorists, since terrorism is the only way they have of fighting back. The problem is that the lesson of history is that you may kill people and conquer territory but you cannot win unless the majority of the population is on side. Vietnam proved that, as did countless anti-colonial struggles. Bush and Sharon are on the wrong side of history, only they haven't noticed.

	18-04-2004 01:10									#57
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You should just cut and paste that instead of rewriting it so much.

	18-04-2004 01:15									#58
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Azazel:

I certainly understand the situation. First off - He wasn't/never would be Hitler (power potential, etc). Bad comparison....a notorius criminal perhaps....

Second - Was he intentionally shielding himself with children? Never w/o them around? If this was a deliberate tactic, fair enough and the child may be a victim. Otherwise, pick your shots carefully.

I see no moral equivalency between PALs blowing up busses and IDF taking out Hamas leadership. One is evil, the other is not. That said, if the IDF knowingly takes out children when an alternative exists they will lose the high ground. (Save the post Agathon, I hear your protests).

	18-04-2004 01:16									#59
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Adios, mutha. Kill them off one at a time if need be.

	18-04-2004 01:17									#60
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It's still true. I don't like it any more than you do - I'm no fan of OBL - that's why I oppose stupid policies that empower him and his ilk.

Or are you doing to tell me that he isn't winning hearts and minds. The US certainly isn't, even among it's allies.

I just saw Brzezinski and Kissinger interviewed on television. Both agreed that the Bush administration's FP is incompetent, unworkable and is doing more harm than good. Know what? They're right.