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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:35
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Just now sent:
quote:
Nobles and citizens of PAL,
I apologise for the situation between us getting to this point unresolved - and part of this is my responsibility, as a Consul for Apolyton, I took it upon myself to coordinate some of the Foreign Affairs in the sudden absence of our Ambassador conmcb25. There are concerns and disgareements affecting attitudes on both sides, but I believe that these can be resolved if we correct the miscommunication between us.
So I hope that we can now completely air our concerns and resolve them to our mutual satisfaction. You have already started, and given us much to discuss to begin with. What I propose next is either: 1. Scheduling a chat with members of PAL who wish to put forward the team's view and are willing to listen in return, so that we can try to better understand each other and find ways to trust each other. I want to attend this chat at the very least, and hopefully other members of Apolyton who are prepared to discuss on an equal level will join me; or 2. At least continue emails between each of our teams so we can try to resolve this not in real-time. Less efficient, but certainly worth it if 1. can't be done. So please, respond when you can, so that we can get things on the right track again. For the time being I'll pull together a team, or at least Consular, response to each of your points.
I hope you see, as I do, that our teams have a great potential together, and that we should be able to clear things up with a little effort. Our teams clearly operate very differently, and this is undoubtedly the cause of most of the difficulties. You will notice from GodKing's letter and the save when it arrives that we have made a gesture of friendship towards resolving our differences - despite the fact we have not completed the hookup of a second set of wines for you, we have offered our one source to you. Please accept this gift, and know that it is characteristic of our intentions to support you as you support us.
Thanks, and I hope to hear back from you soon.
MrWhereItsAt
Consul of Apolyton
PS: I can be reached also on MSN Messenger using the email mrwhereitsat@hotmail.com |
We should get a response for each of PAL's points for an email at least, if a chat does not eventuate. I need to sleep now, but will do some of this when I get the time - this may not be for another 18 hours, but anything posted here will be a help.
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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from PAL
quote:
Esteemed colleague in the MoI of Apolyton and Citizens of Apolyton,
It is good that we are ironing out communications, worries, problems,
and seeking to coordinate our strengths better. Let me present an area
that I believe needs consideration from our two Ministries of Interior.
From a MoI perspective, PAL is troubled about the scientific and
economic health of Apolyton. My historians indicate that Apolyton’s last
research (Mathematics) occurred no later than 1350BC, since PAL received it
in 1325BC. We now live in the enlightened year of 850BC, which means
that 20 turns (500 years) have passed since Apolyton's last discovery.
PAL's foreign relations and intelligence agents offer information that
explains this fact as a result of that under the last 20 turns of
despotism Apolyton has been saving large sums of money to use for swordsman
upgrades which are now complete and will indeed be useful. At Apolyton
and PAL's last meeting, you confirmed to me that a lone dedicated
scientist has at least wisely been advancing the research of Apolyton i
n these five centuries of diverting funds to military purposes. PAL has
for some time planned to use this same research tactic during the era
of anarchy, and encourages Apolyton to continue in this wise practice -
if appropriate after this letter - during anarchy as well.
While we realize that the funds diverted from science have upgraded
several swordsmen, PAL also recognizes that this has come at the cost of
allied research. One of the advantages that this alliance absolutely
must have to succeed against GWT and BAT is a very strong lead in
technology. Technology is an advantage that PAL vigorously desires to protect
from slipping away, being eroded, or even not being leveraged as fully
as possible. Speedy destruction of CDG will help reduce the threat that
they would pass our continent's technologies to the other continent.
As a second measure, we desire that our nations both be united in
dedication to the most rapid research efforts possible. PAL and I are
concerned that in spite of the last 20 turns researching currency (base 16),
Apolyton is looking at an additional 20 or more turns to research
currency, which would make 40+ turns in all.
Some citizens of PAL have been skeptic that Apolyton might be trying to
deceive or not fully disclose true research information about how long
currency would truly take. I and others have made successful personal
efforts to correct this misperception. PAL now realizes that although
under despotism Apolyton was able to generate a large economic surplus,
Republic will be a very different situation. Previously we have noted
Apolyton's laments about unit support. Assuming 7 cities with an 8th on
the way to establish the current situation, I have pointed out that a
corresponding thirty something units would incur significant support
costs under republic, where cities will only support 8 units, leaving 45-60
gold per turn in support costs to be met by Apolyton's size. I believe
that PAL now realizes that although under despotism Apolyton
consciously chose to divert funds from science, under the first good while of
republic Apolyton may have little option but to divert significant
funds from science to unit support. Being aware of this possible
situation, it is difficult not to beleive that the lion share of the needed
research for our alliance's success will be shouldered by PAL for some
time.
I am hoping that together we can figure out ways to overcome the
republic economic crisis that Apolyton will soon be facing. Some at PAL have
suggested that Apolyton wait to enter republic, but I do understand the
importance of republic for a golden age. Other suggestions that even
make me cringe as a MoI have even been suggested, which I will not
mention. We are curious about what methods Apolyton is looking at to address
the situation.
Others have suggested that it may be more prudent for PAL (rather than
Apolyton) to research Currency after Construction, a case which I will
present in detail. Once in GA, PAL and Apolyton will both have
sufficient production to build marketplaces. Our needs for marketplaces will be
different in nature. PAL would need marketplaces primarily to multiply
luxury resources in a way to keep citizens content. Apolyton would need
marketplaces as more of a solution to economic strain. The point is
that despite the differing reasons, both PAL and APO would benefit from
obtaining technology for marketplaces sooner than Apolyton appears to be
able to research it. Naturally, we would lose the progress of
Apolyton's current research, but the dual benefits gained might still be worth
more than the research lost.
Let me illustrate this with a timeline that we have estimated for PAL's
own research capability.
Turn 93: Pal emerges from anarchy into REPUBLIC
Turn 96: Pal scientists discover CONSTRUCTION
Turn 96: Pal builds the PYRAMIDS triggering GOLDEN AGE and HYPERGROWTH
Turn 100 Pal scientists discover CURRENCY
Turn 104 Pal scientists discover LITERATURE
These are conservative estimates based on a low PAL casualty rate. In
other words, this is what we would be looking at even with high unit
support and other constraints. Most specifically, note that Currency and
Literature are 4-turn techs for us, and we can have currency finished by
turn 100 as compared to turn 108+ for Apolyton. Note that if we wait
for Apolyton to research currency at the 20 turn rate (turn 108?), we can
expect at least 8 dead turns or more starting in turn 100 because PAL
would have nothing left to research. This is a highly undesirable
situation, and is not conducive to the alliance being a technology leader.
We are going to want to get into medeival era technology as quickly as
possible.
Some might claim that PAL could simply save the money and use it as a
reserve to drain from later when luxury costs and maintenance costs
become high. I believe that would be a mistake. Firstly, PAL’s luxury rate
costs will be extremely minimal if at all existent for a long time once
our marketplaces are up, so we are looking mainly at maintenance rates.
But second and more importantly, such an approach is a catch up
approach. It may take many turns to drain the treasury of such an approach to
a point where it finally breaks even. Such an approach may put the
breakeven far enough out that GWT and BAT can keep up reasonably with us
well into the future. A more rapid approach from eliminating the
bottleneck promises to create a lead that GWT and BAT have no hope of remotely
keeping pace with. Consider further that the maximum research rate
under GA and non-GA are very different. Some techs that are 4 turns under
GA may be 6 turns under non-GA. Thus even if money were not a fac
tor due to large treasury, the maximum possible research rate when GA
expires would also work against PAL’s efforts to catch up, potentially
putting us in a position where PAL is unable to drain treasury to
bolster science because 100% may not be needed to research a tech in 4 turns.
At any rate, I seriously urge Apolyton to consider abandoning its
currency research, allowing PAL to remove the research bottleneck, while
Apolyton agressively seeks for means to enable themselves as a stronger
economic/scientific contributor. PAL eagerly awaits Apolyton's rapid
response to this proposal and/or any other future economic/scientific
reform proposals that Apolyton may wish to delve into.
For accuracy and surety in coordinating our research efforts can you
confirm the absolute earliest possible turn that Apolyton could have
Currency by? Also, could you provide the earliest possible turn that
Apolyton could have Literature done by if Apolyton switched immediately to
Literature? I hope that the estimates I have provided will be useful.
Let's see what we can coordinate to eliminate technology bottlenecks
and also to make Apolyton's research and economic abilities stronger.
-Heroic
MoI for PAL
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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My response
quote:
As of this turn, we have 42 (+1 settler) units, primarily Hoplites, swordsmen & workers. We also have a significant warrior reserve that may be either upgraded or disbanded depending on how the war goes.
We have all of 18 gold in the bank after doing all the upgrading. Aargh.
We have 7 (soon 8) cities, offering 8 units support. The CDG cities (lets say we capture 5) will provide another 5 support, and after anarchy, we will be settler producing like mad in all our cities that have the growth to support a settler. Yep, we need them that bad. So, on average, let us say we have 13 units supported for the next 20 turns.
That leaves us a unit support cost of 58 gpt.
We were making 29 gpt (not including unit support) just prior to entering anarchy. With republic, we will be making (an estimated) 56 gpt. We will therefore be running a deficit until new cities/settlers are produced. Unless, of course, we enter a golden age which we hope to trigger in the early stages of the war. With a GA, we (I) estimate we will be making close to 80 gpt.
We have 29 turns to go (currently) with Currency. Assuming GA conditions (it will go down to 25 at the start of the war), and max into research, we are looking at 20 turns +/- from now (turn 108).
Lit, if we switched now, would be around turn 117.
All around a bad idea.
If you were going to switch to a more gold intensive stance, how much could you send our way to supplement our research? I know, I don’t like the idea myself, but think about this, we already have over half of the tech researched at the start of the war (turn 93 iirc). If you could finance us for a couple of turns, we crank up science to almost full, and complete it the same time you finish lit.
Remember the free tech we gain also when going into the next age. That is a nice little bonus.
In our GA, we plan on going with settlers, lots of settlers, followed up by marketplaces, libraries and courthouses. We have 8 workers (plus any CDG slaves we can capture) so we will be trying to spend most of the time road building to new city sites and not irrigating or mining. I personally always try for 2 workers per city when not being industrious….
Looking at the numbers, I must say that unless you can support our research to make it worth wild (go for 6-7 turns on lit, and we max out currency to try and gain another 1-2 turns faster than your 8) then your plan seams to be best until we can get a couple of markets and libraries in place. You run the numbers on your end (I have no idea how big your military is, or your settler production)
We were planning on a 12-15 turn science rate (no GA) so that we were making some gold to rush some of our building construction. I agree however that keeping a scientific lead over the other continent is of paramount importance. Because of that, and the science rate we are keeping, we are seriously debating abandoning SoZ and going for the Great Library (if for no other reason to keep it out of their hands).
Btw, with your happiness concerns, have you considered researching monarchy?
I will present your letter and my quick response to my team for further analysis. Thanks and good ideas.
--GK
MoI for Poly
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conmcb25
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Angmar
Aug 2002
time: 23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Togas
It really bothers me when they act like we should be able to keep up with them, and when we can't, they start acting like we're up to something or incompetant.
--Togas |
I wish we could be looking at all perspectives here.
Lets face it, this alliance has been one sided.
And there opinion is we dont even want to share information much less anything else.
All the giving has been them.
And stop and think about it for a minute. They are correct.
If you want gold to keep up in research, if you want settlers and workers, if you want help from them, we need to start being more open, and more trusting.
Lets face facts, when CDG is dead we will be in last place. The best we are going to do is essentially be a vassal to PAL.
Its in the powergraph, our start was average at best and our choice of civ traits wasn't all that great. And our Hoplite protection period is rapidly running out.
Now we can continue to b1tch and whine and moan about it, but it aint gonna change the powergraph.
I think its about time we start thinking about this, and then adapting to make sure we survive to the next game.
And anarchy or no anarchy we need to get whatever troops we have forward and join this attack, lets just try and delay the GA until we are in Republic.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by conmcb25
I wish we could be looking at all perspectives here.
Lets face it, this alliance has been one sided.
And there opinion is we dont even want to share information much less anything else.
All the giving has been them.
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I DO think this way, and I AGREE. They have given a lot, and in comparison we have not, but this is not a reason to lord it over us. PAL does have misgivings about the alliance because of how they perceive our lack of communication at times, and I hope we can correct this to reassure them. But if I sense we are being accused of holding out on them, then I will certainly make sure they realise that they had a commanding start, and that we did not have the same terrain is in no way any fault of our own, nor is their start a hard-fought success on their own behalf.
I remain certain that once these misunderstandings are resolved both of us will feel a lot more secure working together, and we will both have a lot to bring to the alliance. I intend not to unilaterally apologise, but to ensure that BOTH of our teams' misconceptions are resolved.
* MrWhereItsAt should have made that a campaign speech sometime.... 
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:35
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No, Con, they are not correct.
We have kept no information from them. They have given us no information themselves.
We supplied them with Philosophy, Code of Laws, Republic, and a multitude of other early techs. They have given us bonehed, which we had to give back to them.
They've pretty much done whatever they wanted and we've done pretty much whatever they told us to.
What doesn't do any good is them belitting us, period. Originally, their attitude was friendly and open and hospitable. Now, their attitude has switch to a suspicious and dismissive one.
In chat they complain that we're not researching currency fast enough, then ask us what we're going to do about it. I comment that they're going to have to be patient, and they think I'm making fun of them. CLEARLY, them being patient and waiting for us to finish is not an option. We're not living up to our end of the tech exchange, in their eyes, and that means we're either up to something or lame.
--Togas
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GodKing
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Detroit
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
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Perception is what I am afraid is what it is all about. And unfortunately, with this type of game, there is no way to reamidy the situation by reasonible means. We communicate via letters, emails, and the occasional chat. Not personable. If I was in a bar having a drink with Heroic or FP, they would understand just what is going on, but unfortunately we are stuck doing things in a fairly formal method, even if we try and do so informally.
Time is the best remidy. Gifting them the wines will help, and later on whe can always remind them of that, along with all the other little things we haave done.
In the mean time, we have to be patient with them, like one is with children. Explain things to them, and just deal with it. Once we get MI, we can always just go and kill PAL if that is what people want.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:35
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Sent to PAL after playing the latest save (825BC)
quote:
Greetings from your friendly neighbours and allies at Apolyton.
As of this turn, 825BC, we see that PAL has indeed commenced its attack on CDG. This took us a little unprepared, as some of our troops will take another couple of turns to reach the border, but we have responded to a letter sent by CDG asking for clarification on our position on this with a letter of our own.
Although when I sent this letter, it bounced (their inbox is full  ) I have PMed it to them. Here is the letter in full:
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Dear Micaelis Rex and our friends at Elucida:
I regret to inform you that on behalf of our other friends, the nation of PAL, we are joining them in the attack. As you can see, we have approximately 20 units including a mixture of hoplites, swordsmen, archers and horsemen about to or already having entered territory that is occupied by you and adjoin it to our own. With the significant forces poised against you, we wish you will see the wisdom of transferring your cities, gold and workers to us. Your settler(s) will be directed to locations to found new cities that will be transferred to us the turn they are founded.
We have enjoyed playing with you, but of course the rules of this game are simple: 3 teams go on, 2 do not. Unfortunately, your team has had poor luck; in that you are between two other teams, have a mediocre starting location, and civ traits that are not well suited to early expansion, protection and growth.
Regardless of whether or not you choose to make this transition simple or complicated, we wish to invite the members of your team to join up with Poly once the formalities of your annexation are complete and as soon as reasonable.
We thank you for your contribution to this game, as we have enjoyed our interactions with you. We hope you will join with us and together we can enjoy further cooperation towards reaching the next stage.
Apolyton Team
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If CDG caves in, which we believe they will *not*, then we will naturally have a far easier task of this, and will be able to resume our efforts towards eliminating another team all the sooner. We hope you'll agree this would be the best possible circumstance for both of us - taking the land and eliminating a team without the messy war, and then splitting more spoils than we otherwise would have been able to get. This idea has only taken shape very recently, which is why we have not been able to discuss this with you earlier, and I hope you do not have any concerns about this - we certainly feel this outcome would advantage us both.
In the more likely alternative of CDG defying our combined might, we have a stack of units available to attack Shaharazade next turn, which also serves to show them we mean business. The remainder of the troops will arrive on CDG's borders within 3 turns, and we are now discussing where best to direct these. Suggestions from PAL are welcomed and would be strongly considered. 
We are three turns from emerging from Anarchy, and have in the meantime created a number of taxmen - scientists do not significantly help us towards Currency, it seems. We are all hoping we can find a way to keep tech progression between us to a maximum so that PAL does not need to waste any turns. Again, we are open to suggestions.
We are prepared to begin addressing PAL's concerns about a perceived imbalance in contributions to the alliance, but that might be overburdening this already weighty tome of an email too much. Expect another email about this soon. For the moment please keep in mind the free tech we get upon advancement to the Medieval Age could be worth as much as Construction and Currency put together.
Needless to say I hope that the next dozen turns will see us smooth over differences and get on with the serious task of preparing to waste the other continent.
See you at the gates to Zarigueya!
MrWhereItsAt
Consul of Apolyton
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So here I forwarded them what I sent to CDG in the same way they did to us, as well as telling them what we are doing (that we are actually doing SOMEthing!). As GK says, sounds like we need to be clear to tell them what we are doing so that they do not act surprised and get upset later. Most of this is just courtesy really, and so they know what happens if next turn there IS no CDG to attack (unlikely). Otherwise just trying to make them know that we appreciate any input they may have at this point, and showing further intention to working things out.
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ormuzd
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quote:
okay, I've been asked to arrange a meeting, so I propose one of the following meeting dates:
2pm-7pm EST monday march 7th
2pm-7pm EST tuesday march 8th
2pm-7pm EST wednesday march 9th
2pm-7pm EST thursday march 10th
2pm-7pm EST friday march 11th
since most of our governing body (prez, vice prez, MoI, MoFr, diplomat to APO) is euro based the times are euro-based as well
sincerely,
TheDohr |
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ormuzd
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We need to remind PAL about our border agreement. They have to give us Pumpkinland after we build the city north of it. And this is going happen after 2 turns. If the game continues with this pace, this means we will the city Monday or Tuesday next week.
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ormuzd
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I have reminded them three times in the last week
anyway thanks for this post - sometimes I'm forgetting even my name
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All times are GMT. The time now is 05:35.
Apolyton Time is 00:35. |
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25-10-2004 16:54
to GK and MWIA, thanks 
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