26-04-2004 09:23									#1
	Foriegn Affairs- PAL Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

We met PAL this turn (2590BC)

Beta, Im going to appoint myself Ambassador for now. Im stepping down from the conselship shortly, and more importantly I have been working non stop on my relationship with F-P since November hoping this day would come.

Now is the time to capitolize on that relationship.

(con has been doing a lot of sucking up knowing how good these guys are!)

Right now the topics are tech trade:

Our WC-3 pts and Alphabet- 6pts for Masonry-4 pts and the wheel-4pts.

Then try and get some info. we they are, what tech they are working on and if they have met anyone.

And yes we got WC from CDG BUT we did not sign a NTA , The consensus from chat this evening was trade it to PAL and that included all three consels.

	26-04-2004 09:34									#2
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Let's try to work out a SIMPLE tech trade with them in the next 2-4 turns. No immediate rush, because we don't need the techs PAL has and they don't need to be rushing up the tech ladder ... we want to keep them behind us and CDG.

However, we do want to trade with them before they meet CDG, and once that's done, trade with them occasionally, but nothing blatantly cooperative. We want to stay friendly, but not work together with them. Our tech arrangement with CDG is our edge over PAL, and we need to keep that edge.

--Togas

	26-04-2004 09:56									#3
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Message sent to PAL:

quote: Well Jesse (Jesse is F-P) The day we had hoped for has finally come, we met last night. I tried to get you on AIM but you were offline. First order of business is a tech trade> We have WC and Alphabet and would like to trade that to you for masonry and The Wheel. Thats 9 points on our side and 8 points on yours. We would be willing to forget the one point for the sake of building trust and a future cooperative relationship, so what do you say? Also we were wondering approximately where you are on the map. Have you guys met anyone else? Also to possibly lead to some future tech trades can you tell us what you are currently researching? Good to finally meet you in game so we dont have to "dance around the issues" any longer. Sincerely your friends at Apolyton conmcb25 (Steve) Consel for Apolyton and interrum ambassador to PAL.

	26-04-2004 10:03									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Togas However, we do want to trade with them before they meet CDG, and once that's done, trade with them occasionally, but nothing blatantly cooperative. We want to stay friendly, but not work together with them. Our tech arrangement with CDG is our edge over PAL, and we need to keep that edge. --Togas

We dont want to work with them? I agree on keeping a tech edge but have you looked at the scores?

If we dont work with them we are screwed. If I have to choose between PAL and CDG to side with Im going to choose PAL. and we gang up on CDG when the NAP runs out.

And if that is what we are going to do we are going to at least have to lay down the ground work in the next 6 turns BEFORE they meet CDG.

Lets gang up now and ensure our survival.

We are strong to both right now, but PAL got that early settler from a hut pop (we are almost positive of that and look at there score)

I say we suck up to PAL and gang bang CDG. But thats just my opinion.

I guess we need to discuss it.

But I agree we trade techs only when we have to. BUT they got an early settler pop and there research maybe ahead of ours anyway at this point. Thats something to think about.

Current scores:

PAL: 134
Apoly: 93
Shulgi: 99
Webringers: 88
CDG: 75

	26-04-2004 10:18									#5
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Diplomaticly, I prefer to cooperate with weak teams against strong teams. Weak teams need allies. Strong teams do not, and while I do want us to continue to curry a nice relationship with PAL, I know their playing style is an agressive and competative one, one that doesn't lead to long-term relationships. One that doesn't care much for relations or reputation either.

Cooperate with PAL to kill CDG, and we'll be PAL's only remaining target, and they'd absolutely love to kill us, for the pride and prestige of it all. Frankly, a fight with them is not what we want in this game, but if we do have to fight them, let's fight them on our terms with an ally on our side to ensure victory ... or to ensure that someone else takes the majority of the losses.

--Togas

	26-04-2004 14:56									#6
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The impression I have of the Ladderites is that they are the epitome of excellence concerning the Ancient age PBEM. They are like-wise also good at the Mideval age as well, but I feel that their strengths lay squarely on military shoulders.

If we were to fight them, even with CDG on our side, it would be when they have a strategic (mind) advantage.

If we team with them to get CDG, then we would be working with them during their lime-lite. Then, if they backstab us (which I don't think they will do unless they are confident of their victory, and I don't think anyone is confident of a victory over us), they will have to hope that they get us before BAT or Webring falls or they are screwed in the next game. They know this. This is an awfully small chance of occuring.

Our worst fear would be PAL and CDG teaming up against us. This is what we must prepare for. This is also what we must prevent at all costs.

	26-04-2004 20:36									#7
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OK this is the initial response from F-P and I debated on whether to include the entire message or not.

I decided to include it because this will give you insight into the personnal relationship that has developed between myself and F-P. We go back and forth like this and tease each other all in good fun.

And notice he thinks we popped the hut and he wished us good luck with it.

Here is the message:

quote: You bastard, you stole that hut, didn't you? LOLOLOL.... Hope you had good luck with it. Let me get in touch with our team and get back to you. (This was an unofficial email.) :P

	26-04-2004 20:43									#8
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Hmmm.... the leader of the opposing team is ALREADY calling our ambassador to them a Bastard.

	27-04-2004 01:08									#9
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Not a good sign

Last edited by Krill on 27-04-2004 at 01:51

	27-04-2004 04:06									#10
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Actually - can we ask them to NOT pop the hut this turn! Tell them why we didn't pop it, and have them INCLUDE the hut as their extra point in the tech trade. IF (big if) we get a tech out of the hut, we can offer it to them at a discounted rate - and if we get one of their techs (from the trade) we can still work something out with them regarding other tech deals later. ALSO, offer to wait and let them get to the mountain prior to us popping it so that if barbs come out, they will have a strong defensive position.

This is just an idea - but one worth trying as he assumes we already have the hut.

	27-04-2004 04:30									#11
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 And notice he thinks we popped the hut and he wished us good luck with it.

yeah, i mean, what kind of moron doesn't pop a hut clearly nowhere near their land? LOLOLOL

	27-04-2004 08:42									#12
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con - don't mean to be a pain here - but I think we should have a full discussion regarding you being the ambassador to PAL. Perhaps we need to decide on our choice of alliances before we discuss this. But as stated in the other thread, I wish you had not been so quick off the mark with the trade proposal. It limits our position somewhat.

Also - if we decide to side with CDG, and you still wnat to be ambassador, are you going to be OK with the approach that may be needed to string PAL along?

	27-04-2004 16:36									#13
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PAL doesn't know that we met CDG, right? Let's keep it a secret to them :-)

	27-04-2004 22:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Beta con - don't mean to be a pain here - but I think we should have a full discussion regarding you being the ambassador to PAL. Perhaps we need to decide on our choice of alliances before we discuss this. But as stated in the other thread, I wish you had not been so quick off the mark with the trade proposal. It limits our position somewhat. Also - if we decide to side with CDG, and you still wnat to be ambassador, are you going to be OK with the approach that may be needed to string PAL along?

Beta

The trade was approved by the consels, all three, and agreed to by the rest of the folks we had in chat as well.

And we are trading a tech we got from CGN that did NOT have an NTA. So unless we "use it" we would "lose it" or lose the oppurtunity in about 6 turns when PAL meets CDG.

If you believe there is a conflict of interest, then I will step down, no problem. But F-P told me this morning he would probably handle the ambassador duties since he thinks that would be best.

Now I have been working on my relationship with F-P since last November when this game came up hoping our teams would eventually meet and hoping we could work something out with them. As you know relationships are sometimes everything in diplomacy. Because of that and some RL issues over the summer (Im going to be gone a lot) Im planning on stepping down as consel when my term is up in less than two weeks. What I mean is I feel VERY Strongly that a solid relationship leading to a long term aliance with PAL will help us get to the next game as well as help us in that game. Or else I would not have been working so hard on our relationship with F-P/ PAL over the last 5 months.

So Im stepping down from consel for two reasons. First is the absence issue this summer. Second is I believe it is time to capitolize on the relationship I have developed with F-P to the betterment of this team. Now the absences aren't all at once. Its two weeks end of May, at least a week in June, and possibly up to three weeks total in July thru early august. So thats what about 6 weeks? That would be half of my next consel term if I ran and was again elected. I just dont think that is fair to the team.

Now with that being said if we actually do decide to align with CDG as a team and take out PAL. And at that time if we decide its not in the teams best interest for me to be PAL's amabassador then Ill step down. I can always tell F-P that Im going to be gone a lot over the summer so :"person x" is going to handle the diplomacy.

And you wont be "stringing PAL along" for long. They are a sharp team and have a lot of good CIV players. Hell F-P is still one of us in the ISDG. He knows us and he will see thru a smoke screen sooner than you think.

But again you are our FAM and in two weeks you will no longer "work for me". So go ahead and be honest Beta, if you dont think Im the guy for the job then just let me know. Im a big boy, one less demo game commitment for me probably wouldn't be a bad thing It would sure make my wife happy

And no you are not being a pain, you are doing your job I appreciate it.

	27-04-2004 23:26									#15
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Ok finally the chat with F-P, this took place approximately 6 hours ago. (Right before we both had to go to work)

Ill also post this in the Foriegn affairs thread but I wanted to post it here because Im going to comment on it:

quote: conmcb25: You there? PTAGuildmaster: LOL PTAGuildmaster: yes PTAGuildmaster: Okay, short version and we can make this a "semi-official" conversation conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: My folks like the tech treaty and will be willing to offer it on our turn, but we'd like a 20 turn no-trade clause. We're not total diplo-noobies. PTAGuildmaster: We think you weren't weird enough to research Warrior Code. PTAGuildmaster: :P conmcb25: OK I dont see a problem with that PTAGuildmaster: As for the exchange of location, "yes if they do same" is the feeling conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: ditto trade of contact info conmcb25: We are SW of that mountain/hut PTAGuildmaster: we're north of the mountain/hut conmcb25: not sure on the number of tiles PTAGuildmaster: friendly bonus info: be very careful heading north, we've left a decent-sized mess of angry barbs up there conmcb25: but a general direction should be good for now conmcb25: ok PTAGuildmaster: I'd say moderate odds on death for a warrior, if you're running a Hop yer home free. conmcb25: ok PTAGuildmaster: uh, contact trades are also "if you exchange too" conmcb25: Well lets be safe on this one. PTAGuildmaster: well, not REAL contact trades conmcb25: We contacted "a Civ " to the SE of that mountain. PTAGuildmaster: aha, I see PTAGuildmaster: as for research directions... conmcb25: Ok the CIV you contacted PTAGuildmaster: We have no contacts currently. conmcb25: OK got ya conmcb25: You will fairly soon PTAGuildmaster: k. the research info... conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: our people are.. PTAGuildmaster: hmm. PTAGuildmaster: Reluctant on this one - they're paranoid. I don't know why, but they think it's dangerous info. PTAGuildmaster: I think I know the answer to this PTAGuildmaster: but I have to ask PTAGuildmaster: "Why do you want to know?" conmcb25: If we continue to tech cooperate in the future it would be nice for us to NOT both research the same tech conmcb25: Its a waste of beakers conmcb25: simple as that PTAGuildmaster: ::Nod:: I agree. I will relay that and hopefully it will allay the concerns of a few folks. PTAGuildmaster: I expect we'll be able to get back to you on that info favorably and soon. The vote was already swinging pro-Apolyton. PTAGuildmaster: We just have a lot of suspicious types; your friendly overtures have helped. conmcb25: OK conmcb25: Where do you see our relationship going? Because quite frankly we have some doubters in our forum on the wisdom of hooking up with your team. PTAGuildmaster: heh PTAGuildmaster: okay, unofficially... PTAGuildmaster: let me quote you a suggestion from our forum this morning PTAGuildmaster: this is not ****, exact quote by someone else in power here PTAGuildmaster: At this time is more opportune for both of us to begin our relationship for the conquest of this game. We are the two most powerful teams, we both get along, hell we owe them after the Bone incident. I say to my fellow PAL's that we if even just the ministers/vp and Not-MoI agree. That we proceed to create a user-room in GS, or use Internet Relay Chat to set up a meet with the Ambassadors, Leaders, Ministers whoever wants in, To begin negotiating for an alliance with Apolyton, if this is acceptable PTAGuildmaster: we can create the coordination of techs, Give positions, coordinate militarily and work to destroying the rest. PTAGuildmaster: Basically, some of our folks are afraid of "apolyton builder power" but the largest sentiment is "Let's try to get in bed with them and beat the 3rd civ off the continent" conmcb25: Well that is what I have been pushing for in our forums PTAGuildmaster: If you want objective quotable facts, here: PTAGuildmaster: We have no intention of wanting to mix things up with the "Pike UU." conmcb25: Thats why we choose it……… PTAGuildmaster: We also see it this way: in an elimination environment like this, you take the biggest dog PTAGuildmaster: and you ally with the second biggest dog PTAGuildmaster: and you win the game. PTAGuildmaster: THAT part we know a lot about. PTAGuildmaster: And we know Apolyton knows their $hit and attacking them would be painful PTAGuildmaster: so we're going after the next easiest target conmcb25: Well that good news and should alleviate some concerns at my forum. Are you guys going to assign a diplo guy?, so far you got me from Apoly. PTAGuildmaster: I might be able to swing being the ambassador myself, if you think that would be wise conmcb25: OK PTAGuildmaster: Tell your team that we said this: PTAGuildmaster: "We're good at early age war, but we also understand that it can be wasteful and unwise. Good at war means knowing not to engage, too." PTAGuildmaster: C'mon man, we have a JAVELIN THROWER. :P conmcb25: Dam good point PTAGuildmaster: We're barb harvesters. :P conmcb25: I LOVE the maya BTW conmcb25: Good choice conmcb25: OK I got to run conmcb25: What time you get home from work? conmcb25: and log in normally? PTAGuildmaster: uh conmcb25: CDT? PTAGuildmaster: I'll be around from about 6pm on CDT PTAGuildmaster: that work for you? conmcb25: Fine conmcb25: I may not be on till later (kids) conmcb25: but Im usually on by 2100CDT PTAGuildmaster: okay, great. PTAGuildmaster: I gotta get ready for work PTAGuildmaster: tell your guys that yes, PAL understands gangbang tactics PTAGuildmaster: but we also want a strong ally in the final game, too. :P conmcb25: Me too PTAGuildmaster: and that continent is too big for one team PTAGuildmaster: so why not share it with the honorable superbuilders? PTAGuildmaster: (and go cream the obnoxious german team) PTAGuildmaster: seriously, while sentiment has been to gangbang, we have way too many pro-Apolyton folks PTAGuildmaster: Civer Dan? Sperricles? Me? Mo-D? conmcb25: Good PTAGuildmaster: You think CiverDan would allow us to backstab you? :P conmcb25: I hope we can work something out PTAGuildmaster: Filibuster! conmcb25: Im PUSHING HARD PTAGuildmaster: hehe conmcb25: I am conmcb25: OK conmcb25: Gotta go and do the work thing

First of all we got the tech trade

Second of all we now know where they are and we know they have not contacted anyone. (Kind of makes you wonder where that CDG galley went, doesn't it?)

Third of all for the folks that are concerned about PAL I hope this is enough to convince you they WANT a long term relationship. They (as I do ) think the two big dogs ought to hook up and win this game and carry that relationship to game 2.

They are a sharp team, they want to coordinate and eventually become allies, they share a distrust of the Germans, they know two strong powers on this continent are better than one strong power and most importantly they understand that carrying a solid relationship into game 2 is also important.

	28-04-2004 05:21									#16
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Interesting. Very interisting.

	28-04-2004 05:39									#17
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con - thanks for the chat post.

And please do not get defensive about my comments. I am trying to be objective about this - pure and simple. You are too good a friend to personalize this; and in no way did I mean to offend. Sorry if I did.

One of the great things about Poly, and our teams, (and one of its greatest strengths) is our ability to debate an issue strenuously to get all ideas and perspectives out on the table. And your relationship with F-P is simply one thing to consider - that's all. We have shared too many kiwis and bananas to let a simple debate come between us.

(and I do recognize that I serve at the pleasure of the consuls. )

Back to the discussion at hand - the point I was making is that if we aligned with CDG, and got them to agree not to trade with PAL, they would not get the techs in 6 turns anyway, and we could effectively isolate PAL technologically. That was the point I was trying to make.

That being said, I take F-P's dialogue at face value, and appreciate the opportunity siding with them would give us.

	28-04-2004 05:54									#18
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I tech lead isn't going to do us much good.

The only techs you need to fight effectively in the ancient age is:
Bronse Working (PAL has)
Iron Working
Wheel (PAL has)
Warrior Code
Horseback Riding

We would only be able to hamstring them for a little bit with a tech embargo.

	28-04-2004 05:59									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Beta con - thanks for the chat post. And please do not get defensive about my comments. I am trying to be objective about this - pure and simple. You are too good a friend to personalize this; and in no way did I mean to offend. Sorry if I did. One of the great things about Poly, and our teams, (and one of its greatest strengths) is our ability to debate an issue strenuously to get all ideas and perspectives out on the table. And your relationship with F-P is simply one thing to consider - that's all. We have shared too many kiwis and bananas to let a simple debate come between us.

Never my friend, you know me Im a straight shooter, and honestly if anyone thought there was a conflict of interest or I was not the best person or didn't want me to be an ambassador because I cant spell worth a $hit I would step down in a heartbeat.

Im here to do whats best for the team.

I get you on the tech trade but boycotting PAL right now probably isn't the best way to go, dont you think.?If we do side with CDG, I think its too early to play our hand with PAL anyway. At least thats my opinion

If we go the CDG route, I would start slowly stonewalling em before we get the free Philo Tech, we wouldn't be ready for an attack until late in this age anyway.

	28-04-2004 06:19									#20
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Yes, early REX is prefered to early war with REX not yet complete IMHO.

	28-04-2004 06:21									#21
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There is that to consider. But even if they got wind of what was up - they would be forced into a dilemma of military versus research.

And I think our hand is going to have to be played one way or the other within the next turn or two. I don't think we can wait for PAL and CDG without already having picked our ally and firming up the alliance. After your chat - if we do not get back to them with something positive shortly - it will clearly be seen as a negative response - regardless of how we try to present it. And as F-P said - there are already doubters in their ranks.

	28-04-2004 07:59									#22
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OK folks here is a letter just in from PAL:

quote: Distinguished Consuls and Citizens of Apolyton: You will notice that this turn we will send both The Wheel and Masonry from us as "accepted." This is not an error - we are effectively "giving" you these techs on our turn, and trusting you to "give" us your techs during your turn. We feel that there is more to gain in trust from this risk than to lose if you decide to "take our techs and run." Further in the spirit of trust and friendship, let us disclose to you how the People's Army of the Ladder perceives the current situation. We are not a duplicitous people and will be upfront - this is our way. We believe that the unspecified nation you have contact with is either the Elucidian nation, or the Webring nation - we do not believe your nation would have researched the tech "Warrior Code" at this juncture, since you are a nation of exceptional skill and the coincidence suggests a hut is unlikely. Both of these nations are at their most dangerous in the chivalric era. Both of these nations, according to our own intelligence efforts, are currently growing at a slower and weaker rate than any other - certainly slower than APO or PAL. You have informed us that this nation - whichever it may be - is southeast of "Meeting Mountain" and that you are southwest of same. We have the highest respect for your nation and its skills in infrastructure and building (we are relatively certain we know why your city has grown so large without dropping, for example) and we hope that you have considerable respect for our position and unique skills as well. It is the opinion of PAL that we stand here at a great juncture, of tremendous potential for the benefit of BOTH our nations. We believe that geo-strategically, we are uniquely placed to potentially collaborate against our third neighbor. We believe that this nation - whichever it may be - in its weakened state and threatening to be dangerous in the long-term, is ripe for aggression before it may grow to endanger us both. PAL is skilled in war - but we also recognize the great wisdom in alliance, and in peace. You need not be concerned of the fate of your nation after the fall of our other neighbor. We feel that there is ample land on this continent for both of our needs. We also feel that if it is likely that either Sumeria and China (two teams with historic hostility) or Sumeria and Elucidia (two teams historically not of stellar performance) on the other continent, the nations of PAL and APO together stand a tremendous chance of eliminating one of our other foes and ending this game. We feel that either of the above combinations of nations would be ripe to betray one another for a three-way alliance to finish the fourth nation. The People's Army of the Ladder and Apolyton are two nations with tremendously similar interests, and we have unique sets of skills that can only compliment each other. These are unique and bold times, and as such can be met only with bold words. We recognize that the Elucidian or Webring nation may be offering you the same pledge, but we would counsel you against it: They are a weak nation now and because they are probably closer to you than we are, potentially much more stifling. As you are no doubt aware, PAL is a very strong nation at this point, and we do not envision any limitations on the growth of our strength at this time. To combine forces with them against us would merely ensure the doom of this continent, and whoever survived the chaos of the other continent's invasion would do so only by luck, prayer, and the sort of conniving diplomacy which PAL holds itself above. Clearly, neither your nation, nor ours, would wish for that scenario. We have now offered you what we feel is a tremendous extension of trust and friendship. We hope that you recognize it as such, and embrace it with the same zeal. With respect to our esteemed peers, The People's of the Army of the Ladder.

Like I said elsewhere they are really trying to send us some signs that they want to work things out.

I hope Togas sees this before his Tokyo trip. If he is in chat please point him in this direction.

I would really like to get his thoughts and comments on this before he leaves, because well I and a lot of others respect and value his opinion. And I dont really want to wait a week to hear from him on this if at all possible.

	28-04-2004 08:37									#23
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PAL is beginning to change my mind on the issue of who to side with. They may be the better team to be friends with after all.

	28-04-2004 08:38									#24
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Hmmm - very forthright and strong letter. I wonder how they might feel about a 3-way continental alliance.

In other words - we agree to a game-long alliance with them. We then agree to a three way alliance with CDG. This gives two options:

1) we manage to wipe out the other two civs, or one of them wipes out the other and we finish off the winner, or

2) we break the 3-way alliance with CDG down the road - and finish them off.

In either case, we are allied with PAL. What I like about this plan is that it provides a contingency against the two civs on the other continent making an early alliance and waiting to take on the survivors of our continent.

It also has the advantage of three civs researching in the early part of the game.

Ooooh. Ooooh. I like this plan more and more as I think about it.

I agree we should ally immediately with PAL. But I see no reason to declare war on CDG for awhile. I think we need to see what pans out on the other continent first. If one takes out the other, PAL and Poly can decide who we want to take with us to the next game, and it very well may be CDG.

con - I would be willing to talk with you and F-P to sell this plan. This is exactly where your friendship with them will be invaluable. You will need to assure PAL that we will NOT break the alliance with them. But that together, we can strategically guarantee that we do not end up in a two on two fight with the other continent, AND, we may be able to pick and choose who goes through with us.

What am I missing here....?

I like this plan.

	28-04-2004 08:51									#25
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I agree with Beta. CDG remains useful if only for tech. We and PAL can team up to wipe them out later, but for now they're a useful tool in putting us all ahead of the other civs.

	28-04-2004 08:55									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Beta 2) we break the 3-way alliance with CDG down the road - and finish them off. What am I missing here....? I like this plan.

Beta this is the one thing I think you are missing.

Breaking an alliance should be the last thing we want to do.

Waiting till a Nap ends or breaking a NAP is one thing. But I dont think I want to bring breaking an alliance baggage to the second game.

This could screw up how PAL views us as well.

Thats the one thing I dont like about it.

And based on our building ability and PALs early lead two civs here may very well beat the other two out in the tech race anyway.

*con wishes he was a fly on the wall of the French and German diplo HQ's, now that would be interesting to lisetn too!*

	28-04-2004 08:57									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I agree with Beta. CDG remains useful if only for tech. We and PAL can team up to wipe them out later, but for now they're a useful tool in putting us all ahead of the other civs.

Right I agree, but dont ally with them, I just would hate to break an alliance.

Thats like saying one of Apoly's strongest attributes isn't worth a crap.

And like I said above it WILL follow us into the second game.

	28-04-2004 13:22									#28
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First off...

Wow. They send us TWO TECH ACCEPTED based soley on trust? We CANNOT turn this down!

OK.. here is a point to consider. We team up with PAL and take out CDG. Imagine now, what BAT and GWT would think. One team would be eliminated already with only one more needing to be done next. By the time this is done, they will have met each other. They would also know by this time that they are alone together on their continent. They are going to come to the conclusion that PAL and us ganged up on CDG. Now even if BAT and GWT had allied, do you think that that alliance would stand up knowing that the two best teams have already teamed up? Its going to cause all hell to break loose on the other continent. All hell breaking out is going to help our cause.

	28-04-2004 14:14									#29
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Before I leave for Japan:

PAL is making a good pitch. They may sway us to their side.

Even if we side with them, I do not want us to kill off CDG too quickly. Beta has a good plan, but if that fails, we should delay war with CDG until after GWT and BAT have gone to war. Once that happens, those two cannot ally, one of them will fall, and with CDG falling, we advance to the next game.

Honestly, it would be better to elminate GWT and BAT, but sort of a game-long 3 way alliance is probably too difficult and inpractical to pull off.

--Togas

	28-04-2004 16:41									#30
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con - I appreciate the down-side of breaking the alliance. But I guess I look at it this way:

To PAL we say: We are friends for life.

To CDG we say: We are friends.

The commitments are clearly different, and I think PAL will understand the wisdom of the approach.

In response to Togas, I agree that there may be a smaller chance of our three way alliance lasting to the end of the game, but I say we should give it a chance, at least for the early game tech benefit we can derive from it.

Don - hmmm - interesting take on what would happen on the other continent. As con said - it would be good to have some inside intel. I'm not sure how it would shake out.

And in case it was not already obvious - I too am now convinced that the alliance with PAL is a good thing.