02-10-2004 03:25									#301
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Thanks for that message to PAL about Cobra, FP.

	02-10-2004 19:30									#302
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Guys Im out of time. Im on my way to Italy right now so someone else is going to have to do that letter to PAL.

Ill be in Italy for three weeks. I should eventually have internet access but not until sometime next week.

Ill try and check back sometime next week.

	02-10-2004 20:19									#303
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I see the save is with CDG already - PAL is next. I'll have to do this myself.

It's 3:18am, and today we change our clocks the wrong way (losing an hour). No sleep for real Consuls...

	02-10-2004 20:34									#304
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con probably managed to send something like this already (mentioned in Correspondence), but since I'm not 100% certain and this needs to be done, I have sent this as well.

quote: Hello, I am MrWhereItsAt, Consul of Apolytonia (special hi to FP, if it is you getting this! ). 'Scuse me if you've got the following message already - our Ambassador conmcb25 would normally handle this, but it's not clear whether he had time to, and he's off to Italy for the time being. In his absence you can email me (granvisimo@student.vuw.ac.nz) and another Consul Togas (tom_ogas@yahoo.com) with anything we need to talk about. When we were playing our last turn we noticed that one of your warriors, Cobra, was stationed on the road heading west from our city Naked Aphrodite. This caused a problem, as it meant we couldn't get some units back for upgrading. Please move off the road this turn and keep off them until we can get the war started so things aren't delayed too much in this way. We really need free movement to get ready in time. If you'd like to move through a road or something of ours, please just let us know in advance and we can ensure there are no clashes. Cheers guys, MrWhereItsAt

octy... I don't know your email address....

	02-10-2004 20:42									#305
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I sent the note to heroic. He responded that it was received, and that he and his team are reviewing it.

	03-10-2004 06:28									#306
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While Con is gone, you might as well put mine in too, whitefox_32AThotmailDOTcom

	05-10-2004 16:38									#307
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt con probably managed to send something like this already (mentioned in Correspondence), but since I'm not 100% certain and this needs to be done, I have sent this as well.

MWIA

When I post something in the topped FA thread that means it has either been officially recieved or sent.

On a side note everyone should do that no matter how trivial the corrospondence is. You never know when you need to go back and look something up.

I do appreciate your follow up on this issue. I was in a god awful hurry late last week trying to get ready for my trip to Naples.

I have downloaded some information and Im attempting to put together the "lead" letter to PAL on what we want for the land split. I dont have a heck of a lot of time online here so if someone else wants to take the lead that would be great.

Im just trying to squeeze it in right now because it really needs to be done. My guess is it will lead to another big chat with PAL, and you guys will have to handle that. I can not chat from here.

~con~

	06-10-2004 04:21									#308
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IMO, once we start the war on CDG, we have no reason to delay accepting tech from PAL (unless, of course, we really want to build a few more curraghs to upgrade, however, it seems to me that our upgrade funds would be better spent on swords). So we need to arrange for PAL to send us all the extra techs on the turn before we invade.

--Togas

	06-10-2004 13:51									#309
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quote: When I post something in the topped FA thread that means it has either been officially recieved or sent.

Got it, con. I won't step on your turf again unless I really feel the need to.

Land split letter.... I assume we will be doing our best to justify having all land up to their colony. If I get the time I will do some of this at some point in the next few days and post it here for further alteration.

	06-10-2004 14:24									#310
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Got it, con. I won't step on your turf again unless I really feel the need to.

no turf stepping assumed

I just wanted to clarify that when its in the topped FA thread, its official.

Togas, Ill get a short note to F-P about the techs.

MWIA, Ill check the forum before I try and write something up. If you get to it first great. I dont have a ton of free time here during the day so if you get the ball running on the PAL letter that would be great.

Thanks

con

	06-10-2004 14:39									#311
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Short letter sent to PAL about the Tech situation and the delay with the land split letter. I took the hit for that one.

	07-10-2004 01:20									#312
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OK, it's time for us to finally step up to the plate and argue about the land split. I don't see any reason to continue to delay the argument. The more we delay the more cities they will plant on our side and, thereby, gain more land.

I could be the one to argue with PAL over the land split, but I don't think we want me to be that guy. I'm a bit more hostile and suspicious than most. I think we should send someone who's neutral but fair, and someone that we can trust won't bend over easily and give PAL whatever they want.

We need to appoint our negotiator who will get us as much land as possible AND try to get us a good split location that helps us with future defense and growth.

That person should use MrWIA's numbers and use Uber's split proposal as the basis for our request of a fair split.

--Togas

	07-10-2004 07:18									#313
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I don't know if anybody else on the team has responded.... but no save was attached. Please resend. Do you have a date in mind for the chat?

quote: PTAGuildmaster@aol.com wrote: Save attached - we would like to schedule a meeting if possible before the next full rotation of the save for multiple topics - our mutual endeavor and final preparations/planning amongst them. ____________________________________ Friedrich Psitalon, President Term 3, People's Army of the Ladder Science is for those who learn; poetry, for those who know. -Joseph Roux, "Meditations of a Parish Priest"

	07-10-2004 12:18									#314
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Im thinking either OCT_X or MWIA need to be the negotiator for land guy.

I really think the key is here that we have to ask for more than we are willing to accept.

That way we start high and let them negotiate us down to a reasonable split. That way we at least look reasonable.

I think we have established the starting point (Uber split), now we have to come to consensus on what we will accept.

That way going into negotiations, the negotiator knows what his approved limits are.

	10-10-2004 04:19									#315
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Friendly greetings to the MoI and to the people of Apolyton!

The road between our nations is now complete! PAL anticipates having
our second source of silks available for trade to Apolyton at the
beginning of turn 86 (875 B.C.) However, the pesky Elucidians have poached
one tile of the route, which will prove problematic once war starts. We
can easily send silks until hostilities begin, and again restore them
once the route is reestablished. We ask that APO seek to return the
favor quickly as well by acquiring additional wines to trade as soon as
possible.

We fully plan to build the Great Lighthouse using our GA once the
Pyramids complete. While we have struggled to understand Apolyton's
enchantment with the SoZ, it makes a little more sense to us now in light of
medeival attack idea. We still hope however that the shield cost will
not outweigh the unit payoff, and that we will not find the ancient
cavalry only coming into use too late. PAL has been discussing the
Knights and MI instead of Cavalry and it has indeed been a red hot and highly
active discussion, that we are still examining.

PAL is firmly set on Pyramids. We simply feel it is too risky to give
it to the other continent. Such a plan will backfire against us if
they are allied. We believe it is far safer to keep the pyramids under
the control of our alliance and use it for our mutual benefit in
outexpanding and outpreparing for our mutual enemies.

We can sympathise with Apolyton's laments about lands that could be
richer and wanting to expand faster. PAL has discussed sending settlers
and workers to help once the Pyramids are in place. I would imagine
we'll be using the Pyramids to assist Apolyton in that way at least to
some degree. Everyone at PAL understands the value of PAL of capturing
(certainly not razing) and then transferring CDG's cities to Apolyton.
Everyone at PAL sees the value of the trade road that PAL built for our
nations. We are cheering for the slave we sent to help APO have iron
connected soon. And naturally, we are dedicated to using the Pyramids
to get all of the land on this continent working for the alliance as
soon as possible. The majority of discussion at PAL has been centering
less on if, and more on how many settlers and workers PAL will send.
Recent trends in Apolyton's border proposals have not been helping though.
Moving comments have been surfacing that in light of all the sup
port and aid that PAL is already responsible for, engaged in, and
planning to provide, the proposals for ceding extensive additional border
lands begin to raise doubts as to how much those border proposals are
designed for the best interests of the alliance when compared to how much
they benefit Apolyton especially.

We have noted Apolyton's turn 86 anarchy proposal, and should be able
to cooperate easily. The current poll at PAL is finishing, and I can
assure you that if we do not preceed Apolyton on turn 86, we will
immediately follow Apolyton at the start of turn 87. We are however much more
interested in setting a turn for beginning our combined offensive. We
recognize that Apolyton probably wishes to delay attacking until
emerging into republic because of hoplites and golden age issues. We remind
though that if CDG fails to follow into anarchy, this anarchy period
may actually work to their advantage by giving them several more turns of
production while we both have no production. Also, PAL's attack and
golden age are not predicated on our UU (rather the GA is based on the
Pyramids finishing once we enter republic), so we are eager not to allow
CDG too much of a production advantage. We will however need some time
(4-5 turns) to get the units from our last turn of despotism to
the battlefront. Nevertheless, we are already in the process of
assembling and positioning troops to be ready for any unexpected golden
opportunities. Simply put, we wish to pinpoint (1) the soonest date and
(2) the most agreeable date that Apolyton and PAL could launch the
offensive campaign on.

If CDG follows our nations into anarchy, that will indeed present an
extremely ideal scenario for an early attack. CDG would be unable to
produce reinforcements, research masonry, build walls, or rush units under
such government. We strongly believe that our nations should not
overlook such a golden opportunity if it arises earlier than we may
otherwise have planned our attack for.

Also per the discussion of PAL settlers building cities for Apolyton,
we point out that with the pyramids, we will be able to grow cities
faster than Apolyton might be able to. For example even an average city
that PAL plants for APO could reach size 2 in 15 turns rather than 20,
and size 3 in 20 rather than 30 because of the pyramids. The sacrifice
is of course production, since cities we build in your lands would
experience poor production under our control. You may wish to discuss how
much or how little or under what conditions you would like us to develop
a city before passing it on. Naturally, we leave this idea to
Apolyton's own discretion, but simply point out its availability if desired.

We are also eager about the friendship of our nations continuing to the
next round. We hope that the embassy will assist in creating stability
and other advantages for our alliance. We also hope that we will
continue to communicate more in coordinating all manner of actions between
our nations.

-Heroic
MoI for PAL

	10-10-2004 06:35									#316
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing We ask that APO seek to return the favor quickly as well by acquiring additional wines to trade as soon as possible.

ALthough we don't need the silks, if PAL wants to send them I have no issues I daresay, with GK's excellent idea for the city after the Blue one we will plant near CDG, we will be connecting up another wines in not too long a time either. We can probably provide an estimate on this time to PAL, assuming that will be our next city (West of Apolyton). The wines out there are the most productive tile by far, so a road onto them would provide the extra lux whilst being the thing that benefits us most anyway.

quote: While we have struggled to understand Apolyton's enchantment with the SoZ, it makes a little more sense to us now in light of medeival attack idea. We still hope however that the shield cost will not outweigh the unit payoff, and that we will not find the ancient cavalry only coming into use too late.

I have to say this will need to be reexamined as well. Sure it may provide a decent disincentive for any PAL backstab, but that ,ay be all, as due to all indications CDG should fold like a pack of cards.

quote: We can sympathise with Apolyton's laments about lands that could be richer and wanting to expand faster. PAL has discussed sending settlers and workers to help once the Pyramids are in place. I would imagine we'll be using the Pyramids to assist Apolyton in that way at least to some degree. Everyone at PAL understands the value of PAL of capturing (certainly not razing) and then transferring CDG's cities to Apolyton. Everyone at PAL sees the value of the trade road that PAL built for our nations. We are cheering for the slave we sent to help APO have iron connected soon. And naturally, we are dedicated to using the Pyramids to get all of the land on this continent working for the alliance as soon as possible. The majority of discussion at PAL has been centering less on if, and more on how many settlers and workers PAL will send.

A generous offer, and one we need to think seriously about.

quote: Recent trends in Apolyton's border proposals have not been helping though. Moving comments have been surfacing that in light of all the sup port and aid that PAL is already responsible for, engaged in, and planning to provide, the proposals for ceding extensive additional border lands begin to raise doubts as to how much those border proposals are designed for the best interests of the alliance when compared to how much they benefit Apolyton especially.

ARGH. I hate this. They have so much that is good, and we have so little (most of our land is kinda average). I appreciate them helping us out, but we're still going to need to find a way to make the case that we should be approximately equal in decent land to get the most out of the alliance, whilst not pissing them off too much. Hopefully I and others can come up with some persuasice arguments using the facts of number of tiles as I have previously (roughly) summed up and of the concept of corruption as well - a city belonging to the nation with lower corruption in that area should take precedence, if we are truly working together.

On this note, do we have any plans for our FP? North of CDG's (soon to be) old lands perhaps? If so, we can make a case that this will be more productive in our hands than PAL's, and if they believe their FP would be better served there, then we need to point out the nice lands they have to their SE, as well as to the fact that we would not manage to get the most from our FP if they placed theirs so close to us, which is detrimental to our overall efforts.

	10-10-2004 07:53									#317
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I'd like to know WHY they seem to think that they should have more land than us. Their arguments seem to be centered around the notion that it's "close to their capital" which is complete bullshit. Is it because they have more production and can fill the land faster? That may be true, but they're already talking about building cities for us and gifting them to us after the grow, so that issue seems silly ... if they're happy with gifting us cities, why can't they agree to just give us half the land?

What they don't get is that we are COMMERCIAL. We have less corruption. If one of us is going to have a larger empire, it should be us, as we can get more out of it.

They know that we could use more help in growing our empire, so they fight like made to take over the most high-growth real estate on the map -- floodplains with wheat bonuses, and then get pissy with us because we might actually want it.

Unless someone volunteers to do the border negotiations, I'm going to do so, and I'm not going to be as polite as I should with PAL....

--Togas

	10-10-2004 09:16									#318
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quote: We can sympathise with Apolyton's laments about lands that could be richer and wanting to expand faster. PAL has discussed sending settlers and workers to help once the Pyramids are in place. I would imagine we'll be using the Pyramids to assist Apolyton in that way at least to some degree. Everyone at PAL understands the value of PAL of capturing (certainly not razing) and then transferring CDG's cities to Apolyton. Everyone at PAL sees the value of the trade road that PAL built for our nations. We are cheering for the slave we sent to help APO have iron connected soon. And naturally, we are dedicated to using the Pyramids to get all of the land on this continent working for the alliance as soon as possible. The majority of discussion at PAL has been centering less on if, and more on how many settlers and workers PAL will send. Recent trends in Apolyton's border proposals have not been helping though. Moving comments have been surfacing that in light of all the sup port and aid that PAL is already responsible for, engaged in, and planning to provide, the proposals for ceding extensive additional border lands begin to raise doubts as to how much those border proposals are designed for the best interests of the alliance when compared to how much they benefit Apolyton especially.

I'm starting to believe that PAL is intent on setting us in a position subservient to themselves. For one, Heroic comes off, to me, as condesending. Besides, have they not seen the vast grasslands on either side of their home swamp? There's a difference between unintentionally screwing us over, and purposefully doing so, I think. Then again, it may just be miscommunication. They could think we more land on our side then we really do. I don't know. It at all possible, I'd even like to send a horseman and curragh out PAL's direction to scout out more effciently than just Grog can, so we can make an informed decision in the end.

	11-10-2004 06:42									#319
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I don't think PAL knows what we got over here. They may assume we have more AND better lnad than that of which they've seen to date. Since we can not trade maps yet, it's hard to let them know just what we do have.

Their point about being able to grow faster because of the pyramids ties into their other point about having more cities than us. I guess they look at it like: Evn if they have cities that are more corrupt, they will be more populated that APO's and thus produce more shileds and the corruption factor won't come into play as much due to their higher population.

I just think we need to sit down with PAL and have a calm chat about these things on a factual basis only; not just what's best for whom.

	11-10-2004 07:54									#320
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OK, OK, I'll write a submission to put to them on our land tonight.

	11-10-2004 17:05									#321
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I think we need to share our rough numbers of tiles with them fairly shortly and bring up the commercial aspect.

And just remember this is NOT the PtW ISDG.

With PALs growth and Industrious trait, the best we are probably going to do is a slightly less than equal alliance.

But we dont have to win this game. Just remember that....... After CDG all we have to do is knock out one more CIV with PAL's help.

Now who would you rather be doing that with right now? PAL or CDG?

I can understand the frustration with not getting as many tiles to settle as PAL, but just remember this, it may not get to the point where we settle all the tiles anyway.

And IMHO getting settlers and workers from PAL is BIG BIG BIG.

I would rather have 25 cities built very quickly than 28 cities built very slowly. Thats all the sooner we get to the other continent and kick some a$$.

Im just trying to share the other point of view, we may have to try and think out of our normal "Apolyton Box".

Last edited by conmcb25 on 12-10-2004 at 11:07

	13-10-2004 12:03									#322
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See the FA Corrospondence thread that topped.

PAL has now asked us twice for a "war chat".

Someone needs to set that up soon.

	13-10-2004 23:35									#323
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Con, I had hoped that you would set that up.

Please post if you cannot. If so, one of us Consuls will do so.

--Togas

	14-10-2004 11:19									#324
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Tom I not even going to be back in the States until late on sunday the 25th of October. And I cant chat from here. mIRC, AIM and MSN are blocked, and the local broadband companies charge you 200 Euro just to set up a broadband account

And after some jet lag I probably wont be back into the swing of things till later in the week.

I did see however that you sent the dispatch to F-P and I must say that a mutual board for both teams seems to be the way to go.

As you know, a similar board to handle similar concerns in the PtW ISDG has helped communications amongst allies in that game.

Lets see what F-P can set up.

	14-10-2004 15:38									#325
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I'd love to do this, but with my timezone I probably can't chat at any convenient time, unless it's a weekend, most likely the one after next.

	18-10-2004 09:41									#326
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Received with the latest save (being played now)

quote: Will get to that board after the weekend is over..pertinent info... Good to see you have that iron hooked up. We know of your mighty swordsman, at least the Foreign guy does. We have that silk set up, will send it your way next turn. More importantly: Do you know anything about the coast north of you? We've spotted multiple sea tiles BEYOND ocean on our west coast, approximately parallel with Crudetown, and we're wondering some of the very obvious questions. We don't plan to go charging off into the deep blue sea in the near future, but the Lighthouse is going to get a lot of work if that's any indication. Save is attached, sorry for the delay.

I'd think we will tell them we have their slave (Bonehed) going to connect up the second wines for them, and give them an ETA on that.

Also, I would like to ask PAL what they thinkw e should do with Bonehed afterwards - whether they want him back or whether we can keep him.

Finally there is the issue about responding to their query about the islands (not that they know about these) we have seen with the Valiant. What are peoples' thoughts here? Can we mention we have found two isles with 7 tiles and 3 respectively but ask to agree that neither of us settle until we have agreed on the main landmass allocation?

	18-10-2004 12:07									#327
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think we tell them in general terms about the islands, that we haven't completely explored them but right now there is no apparent connection to the other continent.

When we asked them about the Pennisula to the NE (thinking it was an island) they shared what information they had with us. (It was actually a pennisula and no they hadn't seen any passage to the other continent yet) that was months ago.

I wouldn't even bother about who gets what yet in the INFOGRAM. That should be a larger discussion to include the land split.

	20-10-2004 08:59									#328
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Received from PAL.

quote: Guys - that turnchat we've been asking about for a few turns is becoming a lot more important. We'd really like to have it before we play the turn tomorrow night; we need to settle things like the war date for a solid, fixed-specific number. We also *may* have discovered a sea channel across, but we need to cross-reference any info you have on the subject as well. Been pokin' atcha about this for a few turns. Now we're a-shakin!

I have emailed them back a hurried response:

quote: Here's a hastily written replay to get things moving here. OK - a chat can be done, but the crucial things are 1. timing it with hopefully a little warning; and 2. where this will happen. Our Consuls at the moment are OctavianX - whose whereabouts I cannot attest to right now, although if I specifically contacted him I daresay he would make himself available. He is located somewhere in the US timezones; Togas, who is also in the US, and busy IRL until early evening Nth American time; and myself, and I am situated in New Zealand, which is GMT+13 right now. I imagine most of PAL is located in Nth America as well, and as a postgrad student my times may be a little more flexible than most peoples', so please give us some availablility times that could work. My normal state of affairs means I can do effectively from the time this email is sent (around 0400GMT) until about 1400GMT. Outside of those hours will not be so easy except on the weekends (but then I guess we're looking at earlier than then anyway). I will contact the other Consuls and Domestic Minister for their times. As for the second issue - the place - I know that there have in the past been discussions at some GameSpy chat or whatever, but I have had difficulties in the past getting onto that. I have mIRC working though, and can chat using the Apolyton.net server or probably anywhere else like DALnet, EFNet etc. Please reply when you can on your take on when and where so we can try to get this set up. Cheers, MrWhereItsAt Consul of Apolyton

	20-10-2004 16:59									#329
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From FP:

quote: Where isn't so much a problem as when - New Zealand time is probably the least compatible of all with Eastern Standard; I'm available from 6pm EST (which is...2100 GMT?) to midnight EST. I can get to Apolyton chat as needed, though I'll be alone if that's the case. We can do the entire thing through email if we have to; we just really need to know about war dates more than anything else. The other stuff can wait if it absolutely has to - just easier to get it all done in one fell swoop.

Ok, I am about to respond with the times OctX and Togas mentioned, and hope that things can be sorted out from there.

	20-10-2004 17:13									#330
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Just sent back:

quote: Thanks for the quick reply Here are the stated availability times for the two North American-based Consuls: Octavian X "The general time that I'm around is late night U.S. evenings - from 8PM to 1AM US Central (GMT -5). That time will generally work for the next few days, I think." Togas "Let's do this tomorrow night. Just pick a time after 7:30pm PST and I'll be there" So if this can be done 'tomorrow night' after 7:30pm Pacific Time then please contact Togas and the regulars by email with details on how to get to your chatroom or just show up in #apolyton or #apolytonisdg so things can begin. I am sorry that I am likely not to be there - 7:30pm PST is mid-afternoon my time, and I may not be able to leave Uni until some hours later, but I will try. Good luck with coordination. MrWhereItsAt Consul of Apolyton

It's up to you guys who can make the chat.