08-05-2004 04:13									#271
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quote: Why do people need to believe in a God?

I don't need to believe in something that I know is real.


Besides I choose to believe

	08-05-2004 04:18									#272
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If knowledge is justified true belief, what is the justification here?

Finite creatures such as us with limited minds, cannot fathom the infinite nature of a transcendent God. Hence, there's no way of proving whether such an entity exists or not.

	08-05-2004 04:20									#273
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how bout try this?


For lets say, one week just let loose your logic, believe in GOD and talk to GOD and just see what happens.

Ya got anything to lose?



If you should find GOD please share it with us

	08-05-2004 04:24									#274
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You can't let loose logic anymore than you can believe in a round square.

If it is true that God transcends human comprehension, then it must be true that we can never know if he exists or not.

On the other hand, if there is no such thing as logical consistency, then the belief that God exists is compatible with the belief that he doesn't, and that just makes the statement completely meaningless.

So which is it, do we not know, or is the statement meaningless?

	08-05-2004 04:35									#275
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quote: there's no way of proving whether such an entity exists or not.

Proving GOD exist to you is as easy as proving to you that I have a tooth ache.

The tooth ache may be easier

	08-05-2004 04:37									#276
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On the second point. Truth and meaning are connected.

If we understand the meaning of "God exists" then we can formulate truth as the property that the sentence "God exists" has when God exists.

But if you say that we should get rid of logic we end up having to endorse the sentence "God exists and God doesn't exist" which is a contradiction (p and not-p). This is because if there is no logic then there is no such thing as a contradiction.

So if that sentence is to be meaningful, then it is true whenever God both does and does not exist. On the other hand, if you want to get rid of truth as well, then the sentence "God exists" doesn't make a claim about anything.

	08-05-2004 04:38									#277
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You guys are a lot higher on the IQ tree than me.

If you could use smaller words I would apprecate it

	08-05-2004 04:38									#278
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Proving GOD exist to you is as easy as proving to you that I have a tooth ache. The tooth ache may be easier

Or... to digress a little in the thread, it's as easy as proving Leprechauns exist, and that they're after me lucky charms.

	08-05-2004 04:42									#279
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I don't see the point anyway. What is solved by proving that God exists?

The existence of a deity doesn't solve the problem of why the world is the way it is, because one can just ask, "Why did God make the world the way he did?" And if one answers, "because it was for the best", one can ask, "Why is this particular arrangement the best?" And so on...

	08-05-2004 04:43									#280
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Doc, to you, you accept Gods existence as a given and can thereby find 'proof' in everything. However when you are dealing with people like me and the rest of us here we are working on the assumption that if there is a God we need some damn good proof, and considering that there is no damn good proof then God doesn't exist.

	08-05-2004 04:46									#281
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how bout this?



Can you prove that your mother or father loves you?
Or vice versa.

My faith is as real to me as your love for your parents or their love for you.


It is something that you know is real but have a hard time proving or convencing others.


Does this help explaining?

	08-05-2004 04:51									#282
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quote: I don't see the point anyway. What is solved by proving that God exists?

The question of whether God exists or not. Also, it would give great insight into how to approach life in regards to the proved God and what his stance is in that regard. Sure you could still go your own way, but everyone would have a better knowlege of the consequences of their actions.

quote: The existence of a deity doesn't solve the problem of why the world is the way it is, because one can just ask, "Why did God make the world the way he did?" And if one answers, "because it was for the best", one can ask, "Why is this particular arrangement the best?" And so on...

There will always be more questions. Answering "Is there is a God?" at least allows you to get on to another question.

	08-05-2004 05:01									#283
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Doc we understand how you feel about your faith. It is not that that is in question. Its about whether God actually exists or not.

Also concerning parents love, there are ways to somewhat prove you parents love (e.g that they look after and care for you till you leave home etc) However there is no real proof for a God.

	08-05-2004 05:01									#284
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quote: Doc, to you, you accept Gods existence as a given and can thereby find 'proof' in everything. However when you are dealing with people like me and the rest of us here we are working on the assumption that if there is a God we need some damn good proof, and considering that there is no damn good proof then God doesn't exist.

Yep , I see what you mean.


Just try to keep your mind open to the possability.

Please understand that I don't belittle you because you don't believe.
Nor am I trying to git you to become a holy rolling bible thumper.


I feel GOD in my life and it really makes me feel whole.
It feels so good that I just want you ,my friends, to experince this (non emptyness)
as I do.

If I had money/food/gold/knowlege/ect. I would share this with you so in having this (knowing that GOD exists) I would like to share with you also.

I don't know, it just may be in human nature to want to share.
If I appere to have gone off the deep end forgive me.
Please don't hold it against me

	08-05-2004 05:07									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't see the point anyway. What is solved by proving that God exists? The existence of a deity doesn't solve the problem of why the world is the way it is, because one can just ask, "Why did God make the world the way he did?" And if one answers, "because it was for the best", one can ask, "Why is this particular arrangement the best?" And so on...

Moreover, you have to ask: "Why was God of such a disposition to create it this way?" Because, in truth, positing a Creator does NOTHING about the question "Why is the universe like it is?"

	08-05-2004 05:10									#286
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Way back I stated that I am not very good in trying to explain GOD.


I feel foolish in making myself look so ignorant.

	08-05-2004 05:15									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson There will always be more questions. Answering "Is there is a God?" at least allows you to get on to another question.

No it doesn't - it doesn't answer the question at all!

For the sake of simplicity, let's just assume the universe to be deterministic for a moment (if it's probabilistic, then just know that I'm talking about the most likely outcome, OK? It's easier to write it this way.) The universe started in some configuration such that it would eventually reach a state where there were intelligent life-forms on a certain random planet on a certain random star in a certain random galaxy. Let's call this point A (along the timeline of the universe), and the point where there's life point B. Now, what is added by saying "Oh! There's actually a point, let's call it pre-A, where some omnipotent creator made the universe at that particular configuration at point A!"? You've still got a universe that is in a condition such that intelligent life will occur, and you've added the completely unjustified omnipotent Creator thing before that! Not only does it not answer the question in the slightest, but it adds new, completely unnecessary question!

	08-05-2004 05:27									#288
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Sorry,That is way over my head


I am of lil help on trying to explain on that one.

	08-05-2004 05:30									#289
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I just thought of something



It just might be because of my simple mind that I am able to understand and believe in GOD.

	08-05-2004 05:30									#290
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Basically, saying "there is a Creator" answers nothing, and even adds questions.

	08-05-2004 05:37									#291
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quote: Basically, saying "there is a Creator" answers nothing, and even adds questions

The only thing I can add is that when you stand before GOD ask all the questions you ever wanted answered.


I am sorry this doesn't help you in your search for understanding or believing in GOD.




BTW
I do believe you all want to find GOD because you would not be asking for proof


I am sorry I cannot be of help.
Keep your mind open to the possability

	08-05-2004 05:39									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood how bout this? Can you prove that your mother or father loves you?

HANG YOUR HEAD IN SHAME!!!!!

You plagiarized that from that awful Jodie Foster film, Contact.

Go ask Ming to ban you as penance.

	08-05-2004 05:41									#293
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quote: You plagiarized that from that awful Jodie Foster film, Contact.

Did I really?


I thought I just did an original idea.

Truth

I swear.

	08-05-2004 05:45									#294
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You false witness bearer, you.

	08-05-2004 05:48									#295
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Gene Simmons.


I envy that tounge

	08-05-2004 06:02									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich No it doesn't - it doesn't answer the question at all!

The answer to "Is there a God" answers the question of if there is a God. I don't see how you can debate that. If you have an answer to the question, it answers it.

quote: Now, what is added by saying "Oh! There's actually a point, let's call it pre-A, where some omnipotent creator made the universe at that particular configuration at point A!"? You've still got a universe that is in a condition such that intelligent life will occur, and you've added the completely unjustified omnipotent Creator thing before that! Not only does it not answer the question in the slightest, but it adds new, completely unnecessary question!

The question offered was not "Is there a point?", "How was the universe created?", or "Why?", just "Is there is a God?" If there is a God, the answer is yes. If there isn't a God, the answer is no. I don't know the answer, some claim they do (yes and no). In any case, the question is answerable with the proper knowlege.

	08-05-2004 06:12									#297
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Exactly Aeson. Having that answer to that question also gives you more ability to answer following questions, or attempt to answer following question. If the universe is just randomly created then that leads itself to certain answers or explanations whereas if the universe was created by a God then certain other answers/explanations are more prevalent.

Doc, don't worry, I at least understand what you are saying, I'm just a skeptical person at heart.

	08-05-2004 06:13									#298
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I once worked for a man who claimed that God spoke to him. He was a really nice guy and was happy to talk about it. I asked him why he was sure it was God talking to him, and he said he'd thought about that and decided that given what was said, it couldn't really be anyone else. He didn't come off as a kook or anything like that, he was quite genuine and understood if anyone didn't believe him.

He also told me that he hated religious people who tried to push their religious values on others, since he said he had no reason to believe others who said that God did not talk to them, and that it was pointless and evil to try and convince anyone else, because you couldn't unless God had spoken to them too. He said that there were some things that could not really be communicated to others and thus should not be used against them.

It goes without saying that I was really impressed with this man's character. I don't know whether God spoke to him or not, but I believe that he sincerely believed that God did and could see no reasonable way to deny it.

	08-05-2004 09:09									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood Can you prove that your mother or father loves you?

To you? First, we need to agree on what constitutes "love," but there's a widespred definition we could probably agree on. Then, we can agree on how a person would act if that person loves you, and see if my parents act in such a way.

quote: Originally posted by Docfeelgood My faith is as real to me as your love for your parents or their love for you.

The fundamental difference is not even you could begin on a definition of your god.

	08-05-2004 09:12									#300
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Everyone keep talking about knowing God exits. What God? BY that I mean, just because you assume there was some sentience that created the universe, what gives you the ability to have any idea what it is like? It might very well be totally alien and have no interest whatsoever in anything anymore, since creation.

So even if you assume there was a sentience that created the universe and label that God, you still have no reason to think it could even communicate with Human or that it would even care.