04-05-2004 05:25									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae

"Rushes" can also be performed later, which was my main point. By my definition, as long as you hit an enemy while he's still REXing (and not focusing on defense) it's a "rush" (unless it takes him 100 turns or something else ridiculous like that).

	04-05-2004 19:31									#32
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Good stuff Trip.

I dont really like warrior rushes, but that is just me.

	04-05-2004 21:49									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Trip "Rushes" can also be performed later, which was my main point. By my definition, as long as you hit an enemy while he's still REXing (and not focusing on defense) it's a "rush" (unless it takes him 100 turns or something else ridiculous like that).

If you're going to define "rushes" so broadly then your guide will not be all that informative; it will amount to saying: "Attacking your neighbors early is sometimes a good idea". I'm sure most people know this already (...some have learned it the hard way!).

A strategy guide should contain some finer points on how to actually set up a rush, what it can accomplish, its timeframe, when it should be aborted, etc. Discussing these points, IMO, requires seperating the types of rushes into the categories I listed above (Warrior, Archer, Horsemen/Swordsmen) because each are so different to implement.

In any case, it's your strategy guide, do with it what you will. I'm just trying to add a little more content to it.

	05-05-2004 01:32									#34
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Let me fully endorse Dom's point. The one big complaint about "guides" is that they tend to lack specificity. In order to over come that, you would need to be very specific and that rquires more categories, definitions and details.

	05-05-2004 01:54									#35
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It's meant to be a general overview of different strategies and tactics, not an exact step-by-step guide on how to perfect every single detail. That should be apparent - there are guides as long as the one I've written on each kind of strategy I'm listing here - a certain amount of abstraction is necessary in order to keep things within reason. It already takes quite a few hours as it is to write this stuff up. If you wish to link to or write your own more specialized guide then feel free.

	05-05-2004 05:33									#36
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Re SoDs on the attack:

quote: Originally posted by Trip Catapults fire off first, Horsemen charge in order to wear down the defenders further and the Swordsmen clean up the siege while the Spearmen deter attacks on the army.

Reverse the order of Cats and Horsemen... nothing worse than a redlined defender catching one of your fastmovers.

Another excellent thread, Trip. I do agree, however, that Ultra-early Rushes need their own coverage. Also, first tier tech fastmovers, even though they are UUs, need to be addressed! (or you could just link to one of Aeson's threads ) I know you want to keep it general, but there are enough of them, and they are popular enough, that they should almost be treated as a standard 'class' of unit. On that note, you might want to think about linking to some of the Must Reads to illustrate certain relevant strategies and tactics.

	05-05-2004 22:51									#37
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Alright, alright, I'll split the Rush section into Ultra-Early ones and the current section.

Apologies for the lack of progress lately, finals week is coming up and the due dates for all my papers in my history classes are shooting by in rapid succession.

	06-05-2004 09:27									#38
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Take your time, Trip. You know how I've been in and out lately... I have nothing but respect for your ability to cover the 'turf' around here as well, as completely, and as thoughtfully as you do.

Further:

1) Need some help with your papers? I'm sure a number of worthies would jump in at your request, me included.

2) Wanna job? No sh*t. I know you got more schoolin' to do, but I'd figure something out.

(Howzat for a threadjack? )

And, last but not least, I reiterate that first tier fastmovers need to be addressed!!

	06-05-2004 09:52									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Take your time, Trip. You know how I've been in and out lately... I have nothing but respect for your ability to cover the 'turf' around here as well, as completely, and as thoughtfully as you do.

Thanks.

I do my best to contribute to this community, especially as of late. I find it to be the best on the 'net when it comes to quality info and discussion on Civ 3 and I hope that I have been (and will be able to in the future) contribute and assist other players in mastering the game as this place has already helped me.

The biggest contributors to my current knowledge of this game are guys like Dom, Theseus, Arrian, Nathan, Aeson and many more. I owe you all a lot.

quote: Further: 1) Need some help with your papers? I'm sure a number of worthies would jump in at your request, me included.

Due dates come and gone fortunately. A few sleepless nights yielded 95, 96 and 98% papers for Early Modern France, Medieval Mediterranean and Medieval Europe. While I've always prided myself on being able to put sentences together while having to stay up until 4am on a constant basis, I've never thought that highly of my work.

quote: 2) Wanna job? No sh*t. I know you got more schoolin' to do, but I'd figure something out.

Send me a PM.

quote: And, last but not least, I reiterate that first tier fastmovers need to be addressed!!

Fear not, I'm here to please. I'll get to that eventually.

Smily overload...

	06-05-2004 10:48									#40
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This is some good work, Trip.

	07-05-2004 22:18									#41
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much appreciated. as a builder, I often find myself unprepared against insanely aggressive neighbours. i remember one game where I was wiped out before 3000bc cause of a VERY close and aggressive carthagian

	07-05-2004 22:30									#42
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Heh, the Germans have done that to me once or twice, even after I'd stopped really being a peaceful builder. I don't typically have more than 1 warrior in my capital in the beginning, as the others are out exploring. So a single AI archer (or even a warrior) can mean "game over."

-Arrian

	07-05-2004 22:38									#43
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On levels Monarch and above it can be a real risk early on. In order to expand at a rate to try and match the AI you need to build lots of Settlers and an early Granary which means skimping on military concerns. If you do actually try to build up a military capable of handling the AI early on then you'll be out-REXed like nobody's business.

	08-05-2004 02:04									#44
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The alternative is to then try and fight your way out. Which is fine if you're me, and envisage spending the whole of the next week killing civs in turn

Somehow though, I don't think the rest of poly looks on this as 'finesse', nor would it work on the highest of levels

	08-05-2004 09:09									#45
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Trip, ever done the "ultra-ultra-ultra early" Archer rush?

It requires a LOT of luck but you can wipe out an enemy civ quite easily. Basically start with a militaristic civ (China is my preferred choice). Begin building an archer, and send it away, try and pop a goody hut with it and HOPE to get barbs. Luckily you might get a promotion from the barbs, build two more archers and perhaps a worker.

Once you find a close neighbor send those archers their way and try and catch them before they even get Bronze Working. Their cities will be defended by either warriors or archers. I once did this in PTW on emperor against my Roman neighbors, with 3 archers took rome in ~2700 BC and even got a leader out of it. It was frightneningly devastating.

Again, you need a lot of luck to pull it off, but it is actually fun to attempt. (Though admittedly, not something you should plan on doing consistently since you lose a lot of time in your capital for other builds)

	09-05-2004 00:59									#46
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The latest AU topic - successful 'ultra-ultra-ultra early archer rush', on as high a difficulty as possible

	09-05-2004 03:22									#47
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Wasn't there an AU game where that was practically a requirement? Rome to the northeast and Iroquois further north? And I think Rome itself was on an iron hill... the only one remotely in sight?

	09-05-2004 03:27									#48
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The total eternal forever war one? This one?

	09-05-2004 04:16									#49
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Yes AU208? You needed to archer rush Rome as they had Iron. I seemed to remember having to take down a few legions with archers. But I could be confused by now.

Then it was MW with archers, if yo found them early you did not have to deal with too many. Both capitols were founded on their UU's required resource, nice job (was it alexman?).

	09-05-2004 04:21									#50
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I'm going to play it tomorrow, with a couple of changes.

Iroquios replaced with Sumerians, and I'm playing with AU mod 1.04, for C3C.

I better have a good starting position, and I'm not psoting in the DAR/AAR.

EDIT: I meant today

Last edited by Krill on 09-05-2004 at 08:16

	09-05-2004 21:32									#51
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By the time people have gallys and catapults, the time of pillagers is about over. That is probably why the pillage attempt on Monkey failed. At that point, your opponent will have sufficent force to counteract them. The best time for pillagers if when your opponent has only a couple of cities. In my MP playing I have never seen someone use boats just to land a token pillaging force, the strat just isnt effective.

	09-05-2004 21:50									#52
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quote: By the time people have gallys and catapults, the time of pillagers is about over. That is probably why the pillage attempt on Monkey failed. At that point, your opponent will have sufficent force to counteract them.

That and we were attacking Carthage, who were in a GA. They had/have alot of mercs.

	10-05-2004 17:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Trip, ever done the "ultra-ultra-ultra early" Archer rush? It requires a LOT of luck but you can wipe out an enemy civ quite easily. Basically start with a militaristic civ (China is my preferred choice). Begin building an archer, and send it away, try and pop a goody hut with it and HOPE to get barbs. Luckily you might get a promotion from the barbs, build two more archers and perhaps a worker. Once you find a close neighbor send those archers their way and try and catch them before they even get Bronze Working. Their cities will be defended by either warriors or archers. I once did this in PTW on emperor against my Roman neighbors, with 3 archers took rome in ~2700 BC and even got a leader out of it. It was frightneningly devastating. Again, you need a lot of luck to pull it off, but it is actually fun to attempt. (Though admittedly, not something you should plan on doing consistently since you lose a lot of time in your capital for other builds)

Dunno about Trip, but I have done that.

Usually as China. 2-3 archers. Maybe a barracks first, especially if you have lots of forest so you can chop assist.

Sometimes it's awesome, sometimes it's ugly (when the AI finishes that spearman on the very turn you invade).

-Arrian

	10-05-2004 18:13									#54
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Ultra-ultra-early rushes are a gamble, and usually work only on lower levels, because on higher the AI will have the 1-2 spearmen it needs to fend off a 2-3 archer rush. You can succeed, you can fail. Generally, you usually fail more often than you succeed, but that does little harm, because the AI usually makes peace around the 8th turn no matter what, even if the counterstrike is already right next to your undefended capital.

	10-05-2004 19:34									#55
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The "ultra-early" Archer rush need not be a gamble: all you need to do is revise your objectives. Instead of planning to take the AI's capital with your 2-3 Archers, instead prey on their new settlements, Settlers and stray military units. This weakens them enough for you to conquer them at your leisure later on. As Sir Ralph points out, there's little worry of counter-attack, because you can usually get peace when things get hairy.

Personally I feel this sort of "gamble" is almost always worth it on Emperor and below, because after a successful early Archer-rush you essentially cannot lose (I posted a thread on this a while back).

IMO, the construction of a Barracks is not necessary for such an operation. In fact, it's counter-productive. Would you rather have 5 Reg. Archers with which to rush, or 3 Vet.? With such small numbers, the Barracks is not being cost-effective (of course, the Barracks "pays for itself" later as you build more units, but that's the old invest-or-spend dilemma...with rushes it's assumed you "spend"). The same is not true for Militaristic civs, because their Barracks cost the same as only one Archer; I'm pretty sure 4 Reg. Archers is worse than 3 Vet. ones, or at least it's close. Annoyingly enough, Mil. civs are the ones that do best with Reg. units.

	10-05-2004 19:48									#56
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Militaristic civ changes that from 5 regular archers vs. 4 vet. I was talking about using China.

And yes, it's often even better to just nail settler teams, kill stray units, and then get peace for the civ's tech and worker(s). Taking the capital can be left for later if you cripple them like that early.

-Arrian

	10-05-2004 19:53									#57
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I'm still fond of my old mixture, 5-6 vet archers and 1-2 vet spearmen per rush. True, this isn't an ultra-ultra-eraly rush, but it has several advantages:

- It is nearly failsafe. The success rate high, if the terrain isn't too lousy (hills) or it's the Greeks or Carthage. You will reasonably often defeat the 1-2 regular spearmen the AI can muster for defense.
- Often you can grab a wandering settler or 2 with your approaching reinforcements. You can even wait till the next settler leaves the capital. This means one defender less in it, and almost for sure 2 additional slaves.
- It comes later, somewhere between 2000BC and 1500BC. The AI will already have enough (~3-5) cities, so if you take 1-2 and perhaps get one for peace, it still has 1-2 cities and can and will build more, which you can take again when the time comes. If you rush too early, you'll wipe that civ out and it can't build cities for you anymore.

	10-05-2004 20:09									#58
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I agree with what's been said just above. The ultra-early stuff can be quite effective if you do it right. But since the Conquests beta I haven't played below Demigod so an ultra-early rush is basically suicide. Against human opponents though, a few Archers can be very very deadly...

When I do for a rush I typically do what SirRalph has just said. Build up a relatively significant force with 1 or 2 cities (2 to help pay support mainly, keeping research going). Going in with 2 or 3 Archers is usually a bit too risky for me unless I'm going against a human player.

In a PBEM game against Thriller/Aqualung I just did a rush with 6 Jag Warriors, 1 Archer and 1 Spear. Within a single turn I basically crippled him because he was trying to out-REX me SP style. Rushes in MP can be very very brutal indeed. They're almost always extremely difficult to defend against without totally disrupting everything you're doing (losing your 60s Granary build, having to pop rush, etc.).

	10-05-2004 20:11									#59
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Well, 1 of 3 finals is now complete. By Wednesday I'll have free time to start doing more stuff for this...

	10-05-2004 20:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Militaristic civ changes that from 5 regular archers vs. 4 vet. I was talking about using China.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae The same is not true for Militaristic civs, because their Barracks cost the same as only one Archer; I'm pretty sure 4 Reg. Archers is worse than 3 Vet. ones, or at least it's close.