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Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:19 Visit Trip's homepage!
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From a purely statistical perspective, if you're talking only 1 Spear (reg or vet) then having the 3 vets is superior to 4 regulars. Once you get to having 2 or more units having the multiples is better, giving 4 regulars a 5% better shot at taking down 2 bad guys, and a 7% better shot at taking down 3 of 'em.

Of course, with more units you also give a greater chance of promotion. So there are other factors to keep in mind.

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
In a PBEM game against Thriller/Aqualung I just did a rush with 6 Jag Warriors, 1 Archer and 1 Spear. Within a single turn I basically crippled him because he was trying to out-REX me SP style. Rushes in MP can be very very brutal indeed. They're almost always extremely difficult to defend against without totally disrupting everything you're doing (losing your 60s Granary build, having to pop rush, etc.).


In one of my former game, I rushed selfbiased as Shaka Zulu (hello Dominae ). When I was with 3 vet archers and 1 vet Impi next to his capital, the game died (not by selfbiaseds or my fault, it was Tarquinius who didn't respond anymore). Talk about frustration

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:26 Visit Trip's homepage!
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In ISDG 3 I chose the Zulu so I could test the waters with EXP and those 2-move Spears.

Instead, I got a 20 tile ROCK with 4 tiles of grassland, the rest being mountain or tundra...

In a way I'm glad that one died.

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
From a purely statistical perspective, if you're talking only 1 Spear (reg or vet) then having the 3 vets is superior to 4 regulars. Once you get to having 2 or more units having the multiples is better, giving 4 regulars a 5% better shot at taking down 2 bad guys, and a 7% better shot at taking down 3 of 'em.


Right, but the Barracks is a one-time cost, so every Archer after the third is worth it from a Shields perspective. I'm not sure what the magic number is for non-Militaristic civs.

The point I'm trying to make is that, early on, warm bodies are more important than Shield-efficiency. You can do a lot more "damage" (in an imprecise sense) to the AI with 5 units instead of 3 in the first 50 turns. I'm sure the same is true versus humans. This is closely related to the "attack units, not cities" thing I just mentioned above.

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph


In one of my former game, I rushed selfbiased as Shaka Zulu (hello Dominae).


Were you more successful than I was!?

(I'm not sure we ever wrote AARs for that game. Let me just take this moment to point out that that "offensive" was actually a feint...only the main force never came due to bad communication between my ally and I. Nonetheless, I lost more units than I wanted against a defense much stronger than I was expecting.)

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
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Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:32 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Right, but the Barracks is a one-time cost, so every Archer after the third is worth it from a Shields perspective. I'm not sure what the magic number is for non-Militaristic civs.

The point I'm trying to make is that, early on, warm bodies are more important than Shield-efficiency. You can do a lot more "damage" (in an imprecise sense) to the AI with 5 units instead of 3 in the first 50 turns. I'm sure the same is true versus humans. This is closely related to the "attack units, not cities" thing I just mentioned above.

Though it depends on what you're going up against, this is generally true. As you said, up to 4 regs or 3 vets it's probably best to just go without the Barracks (from both an efficiency and a strike potential standpoint). It really depends on the timing of your strike, knowing where your enemy is early enough and getting units in the right direction. Statistically in addition to shield efficiency, once you get up to 4 vets vs. 5 regulars and beyond it's better to just fork the shields over for the Barracks (as Militaristic).

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:34
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The decision whether to build barracks or not depends on many factors. One of them is the barbarian level. If it's at least restless and your civ is militaristic, don't leave your new-built archers as happiness guards in the cities but send them on different ways towards the civ to attack. They leave your empire as regulars and often arrive as vets or even elites. Just stack them up again before you attack.

Master Zen is offline Master Zen
Deity
of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:35
  Old Post 10-05-2004 20:55 Visit Master Zen's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Cerbykins
The latest AU topic - successful 'ultra-ultra-ultra early archer rush', on as high a difficulty as possible


Emperor is probably the highest difficulty possible to do this.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 11-05-2004 00:13
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quote:


quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Militaristic civ changes that from 5 regular archers vs. 4 vet. I was talking about using China.



quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
The same is not true for Militaristic civs, because their Barracks cost the same as only one Archer; I'm pretty sure 4 Reg. Archers is worse than 3 Vet. ones, or at least it's close.


Doh.

Cort Haus is offline Cort Haus
Emperor
London
Apr 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 11-05-2004 20:21
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There was some discussion of ultra-early archer rushes on this thread .

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-05-2004 07:41 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Finals done with, finally got some more stuff done on this...

Unit tactics for Worker and Settler are done (okay, so I cheated on Settler, sue me ). Will do more later.

Arnelos is offline Arnelos
Emperor
of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-05-2004 07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
okay, so I cheated on Settler, sue me


Don't tempt us.

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 13-05-2004 20:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
The Worker is often overlooked as a powerful military unit. While it's true that the best application of the Worker is in domestic tile improvement, it can also be used in wartime to great effect.


Against the AI, you can also use undefended Workers to lure out military units from its main stacks, reducing the number of attackers you potentially have to defend against in a close battle. Assuming you spread your Workers around, you can sometimes distract one attacker for each Worker you're willing to sacrifice. You can also use Workers as "walls", where to get to a target the AI needs to waste attacks just to reach it (this only works for fast-movers, or units along usable Roads).

Note that the AI will not always attack undefended Workers, but in my experience it's more often than not.

Obviously this tactic is a lot less effective versus human opponents, but it's bluffing potential should not be dismissed.

Last edited by Dominae on 14-05-2004 at 09:45

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 14-05-2004 08:32 Visit Trip's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Against the AI, you can also use undefended Workers to lure out military units from its main stacks, reducing the number of attackers you potentially have to defend against in a close battle. Assuming you spread you Workers around, you can sometimes distract one attacker for each Worker you're willing to sacrifice. You can also use Workers as "walls", where to get to a target the AI needs to waste attacks just to reach it (this only works for fast-movers, or units along usable Roads).

Note that the AI will not always attack undefended Workers, but in my experience it's more often than not.

Obviously this tactic is a lot less effective versus human opponents, but it's bluffing potential should not be dismissed.

Very true, I hadn't thought about the tactic of using Workers as bait when I wrote this up. I'll add this stuff in along with my other stuff from today.

lmtoops is offline lmtoops
King
Dallas, Texas
Mar 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 14-05-2004 09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae


Against the AI, you can also use undefended Workers to lure out military units from its main stacks, reducing the number of attackers you potentially have to defend against in a close battle. Assuming you spread you Workers around, you can sometimes distract one attacker for each Worker you're willing to sacrifice. You can also use Workers as "walls", where to get to a target the AI needs to waste attacks just to reach it (this only works for fast-movers, or units along usable Roads).

Note that the AI will not always attack undefended Workers, but in my experience it's more often than not.

Obviously this tactic is a lot less effective versus human opponents, but it's bluffing potential should not be dismissed.


Many times, this is the best use for slaves from distroyed cities. After destroying an enemy city, you get a few slaves, but your in the middle of a war zone and do not want to spend resources protecting the slaves. Also, you may be vulnerable on a counter attack. As Dominae stated, you can use the slaves as a shield or as a distraction.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 14-05-2004 09:56 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Worker section updated. Will have Warrior up by the end of today.

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 15-05-2004 02:32
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The bonus to using slaves from that civ is that, when recaptured, they won't be destroyed as a matter of routine. Thus, you'll get to capture them and reuse them the same way over and over.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-05-2004 03:39 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Warrior is finally up!


Sorry for the delay, it seems my internet has been down the last few days, and Qwest says that it probably won't be back until Tuesday...

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-05-2004 07:56 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Yeah yeah, Worker and Warrior tactics? I hear you say. Well, I've got a bit more exciting one up that should make Dom happy - The Ultra-Early Rush.

I'm also working on General Defensive Strategies right now, and will have this section up either tonight or tomorrow (depending on how fast I type - I have to give up this internet connection in an hour I believe ).

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 17-05-2004 08:07 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Also:

If anyone has a request for a certain strategy or tactic then speak up and I'll be glad to oblige while I'm wasting away my summer.

Don Giovanni is offline Don Giovanni
Chieftain

Oct 2002
time: 05:35
  Old Post 19-05-2004 13:54
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I often gift cities away as part of both offensive and defensive tactics, also in the ancient era, when:

1) I have captured a city (offensively) that I cannot hold, and maybe have wounded units nearby in danger of being slaughtered. Then I move the units inside and gift the city to a third (distant and/or (culturally) weak) civ, preferably one that I have a RoP with and my opponent does not. That will slow him down, save and heal my units, and maybe the city will flip to me or can be retaken later. Also, it's a great advantage to fight in "no-mans-land" where you have normal movement, whereas your opponent does not. That would be the case if the city (or cities) block the way between you and your opponent. Nice when you get a leader on another continent, and just want that wonder asap.

2) I get caught flat-footed and one of my newly founded cities is in peril. Then I hand over the city to a culturally weak and distant civ, and hope that it will flip back soon after the war is over.

Gifting your cities away is of course not the fastest road to success, but a weapon to inflict damage on your opponent, or deny him the benefits of holding your cities.

Btw, I play vanilla CivIII, emperor or deity mostly.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 19-05-2004 23:25
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Don Giovanni! A cenar teco m'invitasti e son venuto...

(sorry, couldn't resist... )

Platypus Rex is offline Platypus Rex

King
Give Blood..Give Life- just 20 min.. Woodland,CA
Sep 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 25-05-2004 23:32 Visit Platypus Rex<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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just found this thread

have serious reading and absorbing to do






I will be back

Platypus Rex is offline Platypus Rex

King
Give Blood..Give Life- just 20 min.. Woodland,CA
Sep 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 27-05-2004 23:59 Visit Platypus Rex<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/inmate-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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if you are still takiong requests....


what is your take on harbors?

Mad Bomber is offline Mad Bomber
King
Columbus, Ohio
Nov 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 28-05-2004 03:09
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Great thread Trip

I do have one request; that you include a discussion on military camps somewhere in your thread. I feel that military camps are vital for building up military stength with minimal disruption to the REX and Core Development phases of the game.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
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Apr 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 16-11-2004 02:25 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Gasp! Say it's not so! An update!

Section on Archers is finally up (only 6 months late ).

Will try to update this further in the future when I get time.

Trip is offline Trip
Firaxis Games
Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
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  Old Post 16-11-2004 02:30 Visit Trip's homepage!
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Sorry for the delays, hope people are actually still around to see responses...

quote:
Originally posted by Platypus Rex
if you are still takiong requests....

what is your take on harbors?

The value of Harbors depends on what you're trying to achieve. Obviously on maps with lots of water they are more important, whereas the opposite is true on pangaeas with more land.

Harbors are important to link areas for trade, but militarily it depends on what threat you suspect to be facing on the seas. Against other human opponents its more important, as the human player usually recognizes the threat of naval warfare more than the AI. The ability to conduct intercontinental invasions often depends on how well your fleet survives to make it to its destination and drop off land units. Harbors give vet sea units which means your fleet will have better survivability. However, if you don't expect to meet much resistance you can go into battle with only regulars. Additionally, transport vessels (Caravels, Galleons, Transports) usually need not be built in cities with Harbors, as if these guys end up fighting actual battles then you're probably in trouble. Having vet Frigates/Ironclads/Destroyers to cover them is more important than having the transports themselves being veterans.

joncnunn is offline joncnunn
Emperor
Maryland Heights, MO
Sep 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 16-11-2004 03:01 Visit joncnunn's homepage!
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In the ancient era, it's often needed to fight Galleons with Galleons in an overseas invasion. So generally going across the island, an extra Galleon or two would be brought along for sinking the enemy Galleons.

This can be better seen in the Rise of Rome conquest especally if you play the Romans or Carthagans.

Arrian is offline Arrian
Emperor
Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 16-11-2004 03:08
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Galleys, not galleons. If you're fighting battles with galleons, you've got problems.

-Arrian

punkbass2000 is offline punkbass2000
King
Waterloo, ON, Canada
Feb 2002
time: 00:35
  Old Post 16-11-2004 03:25
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If you have galleons in RoR you've got problems.

 
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