16-11-2004 04:25									#91
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I may have missed it, but I would add that harbors are often needed for growth in coastal towns in the ancient and middles ages.

You seem to have many desert tiles, hills and other low food tiles. You may not be able to bring water in for a long time, so harbors are a boon.

	16-11-2004 06:06									#92
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Yes, that is also true. I was trying to keep my explanation limited to military-related issues, as this is a thread on "Ancient Era Warfare."

	16-11-2004 15:38									#93
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Ah, the Stack of Doom! In my first real game I have now been forced to abandon two towns due to a barbarian Horde of Doom, counting 29 horsemen. I've considered letting them have the entire continent while I build barricades on a mountain to protect my home continent that has much less of a barbarian problem (only 10 horsemen, and adequate defenses for the nearby town - they're on my "to do"-list).

I need that other continent though, because that's where the horses are. I play as the Iroquois, and it's only thanks to the ivory for the Statue of Zeus that I've been able to have any horses at all. Best horses of the ancient era though, so I'm not complaining. One ancient cavalry every 5 turns is quite enough on a tiny map, and I don't think I'll ever play on anything bigger. I was so impressed by that investment that I'm going to build the Knights Templar in a few turns.

I already figured out that the only viable defense against the Scandinavians will be to out-galley them, because if their berserkers reach my shores they're not going to have to step ashore and be attacked like the swordsmen the Incas sent. But that's warfare for another era.

	16-11-2004 18:44									#94
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On lower levels, the barbs aren't much of a worry. I often welcome that bard SOD because it's a great way to get my veterans to elites and even some regulars to veteran. And if you happen to be playing the Maya, those 29 barbs are likely to turn into 10 free workers.

	16-11-2004 20:07									#95
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Why would one ever disband towns in the face of barbarian attack?

The worst they will do is steal your money. If you're in a government that allows cash rushing, just use up the cash before they strike. If not, maybe you can buy something from the AI. Or upgrade some units (to then go kill some barbs!).

-Arrian

	16-11-2004 20:36									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The worst they will do is steal your money.

This, and hunting down and killing your workers and settlers. But this annoyance has been fixed in Conquests.

	16-11-2004 22:57									#99
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I have seen stacks of barbs just sit there while I killed them all with 2 units in C3C. Just stay out of the line they will attack on and use a horse type unit.

Hit and fort, heal if needed and do it until they are all dead.

	16-11-2004 23:35									#101
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Why would one ever disband towns in the face of barbarian attack?

Disband? In Civ3, I actually build towns in the path of a huge uprising and leave them empty. The barbs are kept away from any valuable improvements and workers. They just "disappear" in the town and, as said by others, it's not a problem to burn all the cash before they reach you.

Just in case some don't know this yet. Put the line "NoAIatrol=0" into your Conquests.ini file to make the barbs (and the AI units) move some more when thy are idle. This makes them closer to PTW behaviour.

	17-11-2004 01:00									#102
	Got spare money?

The best tonic is to not have any unexposed tiles in your empire when you jump to middle ages.

Then you do not get barb camps and hence no uprisings. If the camps are far from your cities you can deal with at any rate that suits you.

	17-11-2004 01:17									#103
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 The best tonic is to not have any unexposed tiles in your empire when you jump to middle ages.

Try telling that to the AI when you play on a huge pagea. It's them who trigger the jump most of the time, not me. And it's often before I can take the territory to be safe from barbs.

	17-11-2004 02:03									#104
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Yup you can't always get what you need as Mick Jaggers once sang.

You could play on sid and then the AI will easily kill all the barbs for you.

	17-11-2004 02:11									#105
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 You could play on sid and then the AI will easily kill all the barbs for you.

You forgot to add that it would kill me along with the barbs.

	17-11-2004 02:15									#106
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I use any non updated unit to place in the unexplored area or previous barb fort, especially in mountains, they building there.


Raging hordes is getting boring, is there a wat to turn it up a notch?

	17-11-2004 02:17									#107
	Got spare money?

yeah, but they also kil you...


hey, Trip, are you going to do the UU as well?

That is:

• Enkidu,
  
• Jag warrior,
  
• Jav thrower,
  
• Bowman,
  
• Impi,
  
• Hoplite,
  
• Numidian Mercenary,
  
• Immortal,
  
• Gallic Swordsman,
  
• Legionaire,
  
• War Chariot,
  
• Three man chariot,
  
• Mounted Warrior,
  
• And, I suppose, Dromon...
  

	17-11-2004 02:23									#108
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I will probably add a section for each UU under each unit class at some point in time, not sure if I'll do it before or after I complete the whole list...

	17-11-2004 04:13									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The worst they will do is steal your money.

Barbs can also make you lose all your accumulated Production, or make you lose a Pop point. The former is pretty painful when your undefended capital is gunning for that Granary!

It's true that they're not as scary as they used to be, but when they do hit, it can sting.

Edit: Yes, I understand that the context of the discussion is end of Ancient era Barb uprsisings, but I just wanted to point out that Barbs do more than take Gold, when they can.

	17-11-2004 07:52									#110
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quote: The key to taking down a SoD is knowing when to hit it

	17-11-2004 20:13									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Barbs can also make you lose all your accumulated Production, or make you lose a Pop point. The former is pretty painful when your undefended capital is gunning for that Granary! It's true that they're not as scary as they used to be, but when they do hit, it can sting. Edit: Yes, I understand that the context of the discussion is end of Ancient era Barb uprsisings, but I just wanted to point out that Barbs do more than take Gold, when they can.

True. I did think about that, but discounted it because I figured we were talking about a pop1 border town.

It have had occasions where an outlying city loses 1/2 a courthouse build to barb attack (I prioritize CH's early, sometimes it's the city's first build). That's irritating.

-Arrian

	17-11-2004 20:23									#112
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The Ancient Civs mod I've been working on is, ummm, *interesting* from the barb perspective.

	17-11-2004 21:15									#113
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Yeah, I may have to give that a shot once you've fleshed it out some, T. I love the ancient age.

-Arrian

	18-11-2004 07:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Why would one ever disband towns in the face of barbarian attack? The worst they will do is steal your money. If you're in a government that allows cash rushing, just use up the cash before they strike. If not, maybe you can buy something from the AI. Or upgrade some units (to then go kill some barbs!). -Arrian

As a despot I have plenty of cash that I can't spend on rushbuilding, and with there being no river or freshwater lake near my three main cities I never thought that there was much point in changing to a more enlightened government (war weariness and loss of free unit maintainence deters me). Thus I abandoned two pop 1 conquered towns rather than seeing 29 barbarians take 600 of my 650 gold (that's insane - I don't keep my national treasury in any of those towns!). I assumed that the barbarians would have attacked and killed any town defenders, as I didn't have enough units there to stop them.

But what do I know? It's my first real game. The horde then began to pace back and forth between a hill and an Incan town which it seems to leave be. Maybe I could have gotten away with just letting a single unit keep defending the town rather than abandoning it, and the horde would have left that town alone too? Now I've mounted an offensive that I was sure could withstand the counterattack, but then the counterattack didn't happen, so I probably have a lot to learn about the behaviour of barbarian hordes.

Buying stuff from the AI wasn't much of an option. It just costs too much gold to buy tech from them to be worth it considering that I'm just as good at researching as they are. Upgrading units wasn't an option either, because I already had the best cavalry around, and didn't care to spend 30 gold on upgrading a spearman to a pikeman. I'd rather spend that gold on paying for city improvement maintainence while I run 70-80% science. So far the game hasn't punished me enough for starting two stupid wars over land that I can't really use. I've been hoping to get a great leader so I can build the forbidden palace where the Incans used to live. They started out with plenty of grassland, hills, and even a river going through it all. Now they live in the jungle next to a swamp.

	18-11-2004 09:08									#115
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Sorry for stepping on Trip thread again. Anyway if you have 650 gold in despotism, you have horded too much gold. It may have been better to put up more research or lux instead or at least have enough troops to patrol to prevent camps.

The idea is that you may have 150 or less at that point. In that case you could let them hit the the town after spending the cash.
This could be done via trades or just outright gift to some civs to make them like you.

Anyway it is just a consideraton.

	20-11-2004 23:42									#116
	Barbarian Stack of Doom Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Or as I like to call them:

Aberdeen Proving Grounds or NTC (National Training Center).

	23-11-2004 22:25									#117
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Thank you for that little side-track children.

In the meantime, I've finished the section on the Spearman. Next is something a little more fun: the Horseman.

	26-11-2004 09:41									#118
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So, if say barbarians attack an elite unit, could a military leader pop up? Or does it have to be an actual civ?

Anyway, I made a scenario, took the Centauri factions, made them civilizations, and then placed them on the huge map of the world. The game starts in the modern ages, so I made lots of barbarians with tanks, guerillas, and destroyers. It was pretty interesting, they actually faired quite well...even though the civs had modern armors and mech infantry. Then again, what mech infantry can stand up against 50 tanks?

	26-11-2004 09:43									#119
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Leaders can only be acquired through combat with real civilizations... no barbs, sorry.

	26-11-2004 13:52									#120
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Good stuff.....2 points Trip:

1. When used in a stack of Spears and Swords preparing for offence, Archers can add an extra dimension of protection with their defensive bombard. You did mention this briefly, but I think it can be really useful in stacks where they do not become exposed;

2. What about the Chariot --> Horseman upgrade that I'm pretty sure a certain person used on me recently You haven't mentioned Chariots.