28-04-2004 05:04									#1
	City placement stratagy & discussion Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK - this appears to be the city placement plan for the next 9 settlers we will be popping out. In order of settling:

Apolyton - No 1 city. Settler pump.

City #2 - Red - current settler on its way - to be founded on turn 32 (move one more turn,settle next turn). This will be a military site at first, switching over to what will be a wonder producer (can you say Zeus?).

City #3 - Green - will have 1 floodplane (3 when cultural growth) in radius, one woodland to chop, two hills and a mountain. This city will be our second major settler and worker pump. I will forest chop to get a grainary ASAP. This site will focus on our northern and eastern expansion while Apolyton switches over towards western backfilling of the peninsula.

City #4 - Blue - Ivory City. The main reason I choose to found this as #4 instead of #3 is because we have the time, and city #3 is more important for our long term growth (huge growth and production potential). This city will be a general city, with emphasis on military production and long term infrastructure. There will mostly be workers produced from here to keep population in check, so that apolyton and green can focus more on settlers.

City #5 - Yellow - better than site brown for long term potential, it blocks off our peninsula, and it gives us sea access for our curragh's. I want this city to focus on military, particularly naval units. It will also produce the occasional worker.

City #6 - Gray - want to give a good buffer to the Viking Hoards and grab as much of the good lands as possible. This will be a fortress city specializing in military.

City #7 - Lt. Blue - by the time apolyton is switching into settling the western lands, there is a good chance that we will have used one of our workers to help connect ourselves with the vikings. This will allow us to trade one of our extra grapes with them if we choose to do so. It will be a city focusing on economics and military. It will probably produce some cultural improvement early to gain access to the whales. It is also a possible wonder site, but a long term one as its production and growth are limited.

City #8 - White - Just guessing where we can build as we have not explored here yet, but it looks like we have a small bay all to ourselves. This site will be able to share the floodplains with the green city, so it is potentially a great growth site. It will also be a military city depending on where the maya / PAL folks are.

City #9 - Brown - secondary naval city

City #10 - Orange/Peach (or whatever color it is) - fill in site - moderate production potential. Military city, or long term infrastructure.

City #11 - Purple - Fill in, taking the entire peninsula for ourselves. Military, probably naval, as hopefully we will have harbors available. No aquaduct needed.

We have enough hills and mountains that I think we have a good chance of finding iron, so I intend on producing warriors as MP to suppliment the main defenders of Hoplites. All city locations are up for discussion, I simply chose what I feel is a good layout with reasonable spacing.

We need to get producton and growth going with PAL here with us, so now more than ever I will push to settle Green prior to Blue (corruption makes all the difference, along with being able to share tiles with Red).

Last edited by GodKing on 28-04-2004 at 05:10

	28-04-2004 05:33									#2
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This is very grand, but it is wasting WAY to much space. Overlap the cities. Over lap them alot. Most cities won't get above size 6 (as in this elimination game we should be focusing on more units than improvements and there isn't alot of rivers) and only a few will get to size 12. Even the ones that can get to size 12 might not get there because of happiness difficulties.

We must NOT think about perfect cities. We need to think of small close effecient cities.

	28-04-2004 07:16									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I agree with Donegeal. We need to rope them in a bit.

One move I suggest is #7 (light blue) to 4-4 of Apolyton. 4-4 of Apolyton, once founded, can start out working some wines and can also use the plains in the area once they're irrigated. It won't be incredibly shield heavy - only three effective bonus grasses, one of which it shares with Apolyton and one of which requires 12 turns simply to mine - but its proximity to the capitol should make up for this in decreased corruption.

	28-04-2004 07:27									#4
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ineffiecient. i have sent armed guards to depose you.

	28-04-2004 07:47									#5
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I control their pay strings Uber... just remember that. I offered them a bonus and they forgot your orders.

Now, constructive discussion please (maps are nice).

Are people thinking of a one space, 2 space or what?

	28-04-2004 08:38									#6
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Optimum is probably three spacing, do two spacing when we have to.

Hopefully most of these cities will be nothing but "camps" for unit production.

Plan on one grand city to do the Zeus wonder. High, Happy pop and max production.

	28-04-2004 08:47									#7
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Optimum is probably three spacing, do two spacing when we have to. Hopefully most of these cities will be nothing but "camps" for unit production.

Our cities are certainly never going to go past size 12. I think we should leave open the possibility of going past size 6, however; if we end up in a stalemate with 2 civs on this continent and 2 civs on the other, we'll want larger cities for the midieval era.

quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Plan on one grand city to do the Zeus wonder. High, Happy pop and max production.

Err, I don't think we have that sort of luxury hooked up?

	28-04-2004 08:49									#8
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You know KLO Im just tired enough to laugh my arse off when I read that

	28-04-2004 11:49									#9
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I am working on a proposal for our first four cities.

It will have a map of which tiles are used by each city.
What tile improvements will need to get done to each tile.
And it will give the pre-corruption numbers for each one.

As it stands now, I see two 12 spt cities.

	28-04-2004 11:55									#10
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I think our third city should be next (close) to our capital as well, to reduce corruption.

The yellow spots seems perfect.

	28-04-2004 12:36									#11
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Camps! I demand camps!

This is elimination. Don't screw around. There ain't never gonna be any hospitals to make that nice city spacing pay off.

Try for c-x-p-x-c

c is a permanent city. x is space. p is a camp that builds only a barracks or granery and pumps out the lifeblood of civ, units, settlers and workers.

The idea is you go for a very loose permanent city spacing, but you fill that in with camps that could be disbanded after aquaducts or hospitals as permanent cities need the space.

However, in this game... it ain't gonna get to that, so make every tile count. Maximise production. Minimise corruption.

	28-04-2004 16:45									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well I do agree with a closer spacing (generally 3 tiles between cities) for the most part. I will step out of the debate involving camps, as I have not really made use of them ever.

To add debate, what about 4 7 7 of Poly instead of the (newly) proposed 4 4? We get the Wines trade bonus instantly, something that can aid greatly in early tech advancement, or is that more of a SP strat?

And how about 9 9 8 of Poly for the sugar use straight away, and it can share improved plains tiles with Poly too, with a forest nearby. The light green city need not move for this one to be in place.

	28-04-2004 17:03									#13
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I would prefer to work with the bonus grassland tiles first.

	28-04-2004 19:07									#14
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Camps! I demand camps! This is elimination. Don't screw around. There ain't never gonna be any hospitals to make that nice city spacing pay off. Try for c-x-p-x-c c is a permanent city. x is space. p is a camp that builds only a barracks or granery and pumps out the lifeblood of civ, units, settlers and workers. The idea is you go for a very loose permanent city spacing, but you fill that in with camps that could be disbanded after aquaducts or hospitals as permanent cities need the space. However, in this game... it ain't gonna get to that, so make every tile count. Maximise production. Minimise corruption.

NYE welcome back!!!!!!! Long time no see. I and Im sure others have missed your wisdom!

I think this is the ticket to greatness folks. Its the best way to maximize our production in the early game. And whatever we decide to do we need to be strong. Thanks NYE for reminding us of this

	28-04-2004 20:24									#15
	I know this is long, but please read it all. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This proposal has no specific tile placement plan (ie: cxxcxxc). It utilizes the land we have been given to its utmost near capcity (IMO). Here are some notes about each city and I will list them in the order that I think they should be settled.

(all production/commerce estimates done without corruption and at size 6)

RED: 13spt, 11 trade, 0fpt
This is our best bet to build the Statue of Zeus. At size 6 it will be our most productive city. If you look, I marked that we mine two plains tiles so we can maximize commerce in this city while still maintaining its peak spt. It was also done so that we can get the most shields out of this city without having any left over food that will get wasted because its going to be building Zeuses for a while.

PURPLE: 9spt, 8 trade, 0fpt
Claim that Ivory! Not only will it boost our happiness, but it will secure our most precious Ivory so we may build Zeus. As it is the farthest away from our capital in this proposal, it will be our most corrupt (yet still useful). We may want to chop the forests around it to get a gainery and use it as a worker/catapult pump (with chopped forests that get Irrigated, it wil have extra food even at size 6. When it gets to this point, build a worker to make sure that we are not wasting any food).

YELLOW: 12spt, 7 trade, 0fpt
I want this built next as it is the only logical way to get our cultural borders to expand to claim that Bonus grassland that the Red site needs to be the best it can. This will be a unit pump. If we choose, we can chop the forest that it has (and subsequently mine) to hurry a Barracks there. If we do this, this city will also have extra food at size 6 that would be wasted if we did not throw in a worker to build.

BLUE: 9spt, 10 trade, 0fpt
As this city is most likely going to be an 8spt city with corruption, it might be wise to Irrigate the plains NW of the forest (and chop forest for a grainery) and use this cities ability to grow quickly (because of Apolyton changing its WF and not using the cow) to be a Unit/Worker pump (this would be the only city with a grainery and a Barracks). This citiy's potential as very versitile city + its ablility to use the cow, might make this city the third city we build (as opposed to the 5th as it is listed here).

LIGHT BLUE: 9spt, 8 trade, 0fpt
Similar to the Purple site (without the Ivory), Except it will be able to build 20 shield units in three turns even if we chop the forest to the NE for a barracks build. Doing so will also make it have extra food at size 6, making this a Unit/Unit/Worker build sequence (or there abouts). This city will also block off our land to the West so we can fill it in at our own pace. Also it will make it impossible for anyone to get to our capital (our Settler Pump, the life blood of our empire) without going through the land of other cities.

MAROON: 10spt, 9 trade, 0fpt
Simple example of a Unit Pump. It builds a barracks then nothing but units until the end of the game. However, we could once again lower its production slightly so that it will have extra food at size six to build workers with.

The white outline is the Cultural Border of this proposal. I am unsure if the forest in between the blue city and the yellow one would be encompased in the border, thus the dotted white line there. It will really make little difference in the yellow cites production because if it is not in the border, it can just mine the plains directly to the E of it and get the same production.

This strategy is similar to the one I used when I was the Domestic Minister of the SPDGII. It worked VERY well against Diety opponents. For those that don't remember, The game was going incredibly well (we were at tech parity and had basicly squashed the Ottomans and the Iroquis (who were in their golden age)) before the game was abandonded because it was too large for most peoples computers (Huge Map, 32 civs on Diety). This close nit city placing and population control works.

	28-04-2004 23:19									#16
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i like don's plan much better

by the time we begin to finish his plan, we'll be able to see who has colonized where, and plan additional expansion better.

	28-04-2004 23:22									#17
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My primary thinking is that if we try to be to tight with the spacing (epecally to our east), that the other players on the landmass will take over long chucks of territory that we'd otherwise get to first under a looser scheme like God Kings.

Possesion is 90% of the law ...

So I'd sugest founding all of God Kings sites in order to claim the territory, and then going back and adding the overlaping sites.

	28-04-2004 23:32									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn My primary thinking is that if we try to be to tight with the spacing (epecally to our east), that the other players on the landmass will take over long chucks of territory that we'd otherwise get to first under a looser scheme like God Kings. Possesion is 90% of the law ... So I'd sugest founding all of God Kings sites in order to claim the territory, and then going back and adding the overlaping sites.

The problem with that is it takes longer to get your cities productive.

Lets say for example That the average tight city spacing is 3 tiles away and the average loose spacing is 5 tiles away.

Thats two tiles for for a settler to travel to settle, lets say, our first ten cities.

When they are first built lets say they produce 2 spt.

2spt *10 cities* 2 more tiles to traverse. = 40 sheilds. Your loose spacing just wasted 40 sheilds or two hoplites at the same point in time. Because it took the settler 2 more turns to get to the loose city spacing sites.

And if we expand out and claim a lot of territory it wont mean much really. It will be harder to defend, it will take longer to build up and it will be more corrupt. We will have to expend worker labor to build more roads, etc etc etc

Take what you need . Build a strong core. Claim resources or luxes as you have to. But dont build cities far apart, land means nothing if you cant work the tiles. And working the tiles means nothing if your cities are overly corrupt. Thats why Don's plan is pretty good.

	29-04-2004 03:29									#19
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After further thinking, I feel that building the Blue city next is by far the most important.

It needs both a grainery and a barracks so it has lots to build.

It also will be the best place to build up workers to both improve the land and add to the other cities for quicker growth.

In short, the blue city helps our empire more and faster.

	29-04-2004 03:47									#20
	Got spare money?

Don,
For some reason your map is not appearing? Is it me, or is it not uploaded?

	29-04-2004 03:50									#21
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Don, For some reason your map is not appearing? Is it me, or is it not uploaded?

I think its you GK, I can see it

Maybe try clicking on it and downloading it.

	29-04-2004 04:04									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

All I get is a little box with a red x. Can't click.

	29-04-2004 04:59									#23
	Got spare money?

I e-mailed it to that one address of yours.

Last edited by Donegeal on 29-04-2004 at 05:37

	29-04-2004 05:25									#24
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Thanks. Kloreep also sent me a copy.

	29-04-2004 05:49									#25
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here is a raw map for anybody to use who is interested in coming up with a city placement plan.

Note the discovery of horses to our north.

	29-04-2004 06:11									#26
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Here is a new plan.
I adjusted several of the original sites.
I also added in many “camps”

The magic number is to get the city producing 10 shields per turn. Not many of these cities have this potential, provided unless they grow beyond size 6.

Happiness will be key. Emperor level.

1 content just by existing
despotism, MP limit is 2
2 lux available

So, that adds up to 5 productive people without using the lux slider or building some happiness (temples).

	29-04-2004 13:10									#27
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The Blue city in Don's plan should be the next city. However - I don't like it being so close to our capital. Is there any way to move it out a little without disturbing the plan?

	29-04-2004 13:50									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What is wrong with it being so close to the capital?

Being close to the capital means lower corruption.

Also, as the Cap is our Settler pump, its population should never go above size 6 (otherwise it will cost 2x the food for a pop point). My plan already has the Cap mapped out to size 6.

Plus, if you move it just one tile to the East (direction 6 on the number pad), it would no longer be able to take advantage of some of the tile improvements that we have a) already made and b) Apolyton will not be using.

	29-04-2004 20:58									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing 1 content just by existing despotism, MP limit is 2 2 lux available

We are aiming to republic, right? This means no MP but we have to find third lux (we have wines and ivory will be ours soon) or trade with the others, build markets (100 shields).

Will we limit our capitol to 6? It has good tiles for making many shields and building wonders (if needed and I think we will need).

	29-04-2004 23:32									#30
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Here's another possibility with 2 camps (the shaded ones).

Another possibility for ultra-warmongering is to move city #2 W and make it into a camp, and move #8 SW also so the fit is maintained.