30-04-2004 00:29									#31
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MZ can we move your city site 6, one tile due west or 4?

Thats where the poll is telling is to put our second city.

How will that affect the overall balance?

	30-04-2004 01:01									#32
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I'll have to re-map then since it would change the balance quite a bit.

Another option is having that city one tile SW.

	30-04-2004 01:13									#33
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How about Dongeal's plan did you take a peak at that?

If so what do you think?

And how is your plan better or worse.

Sorry to ask so many dam questions but we REALLY need to decide on our plan for the first core.

We can either build a city this turn with a settler or next turn depending on the exact location of your site 6.

So Im trying to push as much discussion as possible.

	30-04-2004 02:34									#34
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Great discussion thus far.

But what we need to do is bring it to conclusion somehow. Someone preferably from the MOI should pull these ideas togther and come up with "THE PLAN (tm)"

At least "THE PLAN (tm)" for the initial core cities.

Last night we were moving our first settler and were unsure of where he should go. I think todays poll has solved that. But we need to decide "the Plan (tm)" and then stick with the plan.

There are good things to Dongael's, GK's and MZ's plan.

Lets bring them together and take the best of all for "THE PLAN (tm)". and move forward.

The only constraint is the red city site which right now is at 6,6 of Apolyton per the current poll.

Go forth and do great things oh wise builders of Apolyton, the civilized world is depending on you

	30-04-2004 02:39									#35
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Comming up with "THE PLAN" is what this discussion is all about. At our current turn progression rate, we will not even have a 3rd city for another month, so I intend on letting all persons present their views, then taking a consensus and come up wth "THE PLAN".

	30-04-2004 02:43									#36
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Comming up with "THE PLAN" is what this discussion is all about. At our current turn progression rate, we will not even have a 3rd city for another month, so I intend on letting all persons present their views, then taking a consensus and come up wth "THE PLAN".

Ok fine but the plan should be more or less finalized before we pop the next settler.

BTW check out this thread at the end, you have a volunteer for deputy MOI, GK, if you like him then appoint him

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...639#post2938663

	30-04-2004 02:53									#37
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Thanks MZ,

I was gonna take a crack at zenning tonight, but you beat me to it.

GO FOR ZENNING!!!

(though I prefer the "ultrawarmonger" version...)

	30-04-2004 11:47									#38
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We -must- have tight spacing at the least!

And this is coming from someone who played Civ I & II as a perfectionist, but after a few games of both AC and Civ 3 seeing how much my economy and production starting going vertical? Gotta have the [strike]warmongering[/strike] Zenning

	30-04-2004 17:52									#39
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I'm not trying to brag, but with our settler building a city where he is right now, anyone, even Aeson or Dom would be hard pressed to find a tight city spacing, allowing for pop six cities that is as effeceint and productive as my plan. Its all mapped out. Which tiles each city would use. What tiles improvements need to be done to each one so that each city has its maximum production without wasting any food because our cities will be stuck at size 6 (most likely for the entire game).

[/brag]

	01-05-2004 01:02									#40
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I like your plan, don. Extreme towning or whatever you want to call it. My only concern about is leaving open the possibility of larger sizes in case the game goes on into the midieval. I suppose we can free 7 tiles for disbanding a city, though; that would help.

	01-05-2004 01:06									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal This proposal has no specific tile placement plan (ie: cxxcxxc). It utilizes the land we have been given to its utmost near capcity (IMO). Here are some notes about each city and I will list them in the order that I think they should be settled. (all production/commerce estimates done without corruption and at size 6) BLUE: 9spt, 10 trade, 0fpt As this city is most likely going to be an 8spt city with corruption, it might be wise to Irrigate the plains NW of the forest (and chop forest for a grainery) and use this cities ability to grow quickly (because of Apolyton changing its WF and not using the cow) to be a Unit/Worker pump (this would be the only city with a grainery and a Barracks). This citiy's potential as very versitile city + its ablility to use the cow, might make this city the third city we build (as opposed to the 5th as it is listed here).

I suggest that this be the next city and it be used for Zeus. While it does not have the production of RED it is in a more protected location and would free up RED for military production. We have a nice defensive line of hills and mountains we can place hoplites and archers on to the North of RED to stop any aggressors from coming this way.

With our current research path I'm concerned that we will not have Mathematics in time to switch to Zeus if we build it at RED.

	12-05-2004 02:53									#42
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After much deliberation, I belive that Donegeals' city plan is the most viable, and best for the immediate war with CDG.

since red site is built and is going to become a unit pump, we have no problem with SOs' above point, Zeus can be delayed. CDG can not.

	13-05-2004 10:51									#43
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I thought I'd take some time and draw up a city plan of my own:



This plan could use some tweeking, but there are several key elements to it:

1) Four cities packed tightly around Apolyton which will later "eat up" Apolyton after we disband it. All of the Apolyton tiles will be used by the group of four.

2) The "light blue" box is our projected new capital city. I've tried to create a ring of cities around it ... the primary ring has 7 cities, all of which are 4 spaces away (or 4.5 in some cases, which I'm told doesn't matter). The next ring is between 6-7 spaces (may need tweeking). You'll notice that Hypnos is in that ring of cities.

3) Wherever practical I used 3 tile spacing,but it's clear that there are a few exceptions due to other concerns.

4) I tried to avoid building on flood plains as much as possible, as I also tried to build on rivers, to give us some port cities, and to give us some hill cities near PAL-land.

Any thoughts? Especially on the matter of "where will our new palace location be?" I think that decision is the first one we should make and we should build our city planning around it.

--Togas

	13-05-2004 11:36									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Any thoughts? Especially on the matter of "where will our new palace location be?" I think that decision is the first one we should make and we should build our city planning around it.

For the cities in that area, this is true. We should plan ahead.

For our core, however, we have to focus primarily on economic output in the shortterm as well as the long-term goals of our civ. Afterall, our primary goal is mere survival.

For that, I like your plan. A tight ring of cities around Apolyton is the way to go. While in despotism, these will be the only ones worth anything. Even after exiting despotism, they'll be the ones worth the most until we finally make the palace jump. Little else is going to matter a great deal (other than for catapult builds or 10-turn worker builds, mostly) for a while.

	13-05-2004 18:37									#45
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Very ambitious Togas. I like it alot.

However, our goal is currently to build as many military units for the destruction of CDG. My plan is geared more for that goal. It will be able to pump out more units faster than Togas's. Togas's plan is more far reaching and thought for beyond the CDG situation.

	13-05-2004 20:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Very ambitious Togas. I like it alot. However, our goal is currently to build as many military units for the destruction of CDG. My plan is geared more for that goal. It will be able to pump out more units faster than Togas's. Togas's plan is more far reaching and thought for beyond the CDG situation.

Our goal also should be to build enough military units to stay "average" to PAL on the military advisor screen.

This IS our core right now. And although I dont disagree that we should eventually jump the palace IF NECESSARY, our primary goal now needs to be sheild production as soon as possible.

Work the potential palace jump spot into that.

What we dont need to do is come up with a long term plan that will eventually make us kick but. We need to kick but now and into the future.

I know this is different then how we usually do things. But just remember this is a different game as well.

Improvise, adapt and overcome. The name of the game right now is sheilds, sheilds, sheilds.

Maybe we need to look at how we can dovetail Dons plan or a modification of it into a long term palace jump plan.

But right now we need to maximize production asap.

	15-05-2004 20:17									#47
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The main sugestion I have is that the Ivory city should be on the hill for defensive purposes. It's likely to be a boarder city given the map.

	16-05-2004 04:46									#48
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I do not believe that my plan is absolutely perfect. I'm sure that others can take this and go further with it. However, I'd like to take what I have so far and compare it with Donegeal's plan.

Donegeal's plan is fine. It's just not what is advertised. It will not get us high production cities quickly, nor is it the best possible plan for building an army to beat CDG. NOR will it keep us up with PAL.

I have placed both of our plans together in one map and highlighted the bonus grassland.



Let's review it city by city:

A
Donegeal's city has no bonus grassland in it's radius. It may use the one that is 9-9, but after that, nothing further. To get production it will have to resort to working forests, which will slow down growth tremendously. It does not serve us well as a camp, nor as a wonder building city.

My city has 2 bonuses in it's immediate radius and continues to expand into grassland which allows very fast growth. At size 2 it will be 5spt (with mines) and will be growing at 2fpt. Mine can CUT the forests, it does not rely upon them for shields, and can thereby be a tremendous city of growth and production for us.

B
Donegeal's city has zero bonuses in its radius. It exists merely to get us Ivory. We would be much better served building an Ivory City at either the hill to the east (protection) or the plains to the NE (floodplains for growth).

My City could be one tile 9 of this spot, if we don't mind a looser build. Putting it here is to keep things tigher. They benefits of this city is that it has floodplains which will aid us in worker production or allow us to work forest and mined plains tiles for more production.

C
We have chosen the same site.

D
Donegeal's city would work a grape and then a lot of irrigated plains. It's production value is rather low. It sits on a hill and cannot work a mined hill.

Mine can work the mined hill and grapes with some culture investment. Admittedly, this one isn't tremendously better than the alternative, however, it has three benefits to Donegeal's D. 1) It has developed tiles already in it's radius, needing less time to develop, road, etc. 2) It serves to devour Apolyton after we do our future palace jump. 3) It puts to work more river tiles sooner giving us more trade sooner than if we built at the other site.

E
By itself, this is a great city with 4 bonus tiles in it's radius and excellent growth. It's too good, frankly!

So I built two cities in it's place ... E and F, both of which have 2 bonus tiles in their radius and would be at 5spt at size 2 (after mines). Donegeal's E site was too good to waste on one city. If we want to use a more focused military "camp" mentality, we build multiple city sites on good land to get the most production out in it. We actually get more production out of these 4 tiles with two cities, as we'll have one more city "base" adding in production and commerce.

Conclusion:
Under my plan Hypnos, A, E, F are all 5spt cities at size 2! Equally important, they all are at 2fpt. Isn't that what we want? Fast and efficient production. High growth. A solid early production base with which to destroy CDG in the next 50 turns? My plan doesn't take eons for all of the cities to grow to size before it works. Mine works almost immediately. It needs only standard worker improvements and uses a fairly tight building pattern.

Cities B, C, and D are fairly productive and clearly no worse than Donegeal's counterparts.

--Togas

	16-05-2004 19:21									#49
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I stand corrected.

This is what I wanted to some sort of integrated plan.

If this gets us 3 5spt cities, asap, then Im all for it.

My opposition thus far has been the fact that we were mostly discussing Donegeal blue vs togas blue.

I wanted to discuss plan vs plan, and was not going to vote for a city that wasn't really part of one.

Well done.

	22-05-2004 23:58									#50
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I'd sugest founding a city on the Hill east of Ivory with the Aquduct before Togas B to ensure that our oppoents don't found a city there. Plus the city on that hill tile would have a natural aquduct. Hum, Togas B should probably be a miliary camp as well.

	23-05-2004 00:03									#51
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Hum, could the upcoming poll for our fourth city placement be timed so that it's open during the entire Memorial Day Weekend? Wouldn't want to miss voting.

	23-05-2004 03:19									#52
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No problem. We have probably 2 weeks from now til we need it, so that should give us plenty of time.

	26-05-2004 01:55									#53
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Ok, now that Paddy has started a poll on the name of our next city, I think we should start to talk more about where it is actually going to go.

Now there has been lots of good talk about building our "Apolyton Prime", over by the Ivory (indicated by the light blue square on Togas's latest map). This site does have the benefits of getting us Ivory sooner than any other site, but that is it only benefit.

I would like us to consider two other options that have not netted much discussion as of yet.

1) The site that both Togas and I agreed on. The one 9 (or Northeast) of Mount Olympus (the single isolated mountain North of Apolyton). Now this site would not be a great and massive production powerhouse, but, like I said in the wonder thread, it would be a good place to settle and start a prebuild on the Great Lighthouse. If we did it this early, we would be a shoo in for the wonder. The down side is it would not add anything to our ability to wage war on CDG.

2) The site that I would most like us to build on would be the one that Togas placed on the forest East of Poseiden Harbor along the coast. It would be another 5spt city at size 2 (then minus coruption). Should be a good city site to build units from for the the CDG war.

Now some might consider the site on the plains that is inbetween our "Apolyton Prime" and the forest costal city, but I feel that if we build there, it would make CDG nervous as it would essentially block them in.

	26-05-2004 01:58									#54
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I think we should go for C or something in the area of the Ds on Togas' map above.

D would probably be better if it was built to have access to the wines from the start. Both sites will need a worker irrigation for them.

	26-05-2004 02:15									#55
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My preference for the next city are my sites E and F. Either is fine, but I'd like to get both of them up ASAP as they should be solid warbuilding contributors in a short time.

--Togas

	26-05-2004 02:28									#56
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5 distance is where corruption starts getting bad, in my experience; though not horrible. But with the bonuses to compensate, that might be a good site too.

	26-05-2004 08:07									#57
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I like the idea of putting a city at C. A Great Lighthouse there will do wonders for us, both before and after the war.

	26-05-2004 08:19									#58
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I would rather have C or E.

	26-05-2004 11:48									#59
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I think we should go with whatever city can give us the largest production boost in the short run, given 2 conditions:

1. It can grow to a reasonable size;
   
2. It's not in the way of long-term planning.
   

	26-05-2004 12:26									#60
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From the Togas plan, Togas mentioned somewhere that two city sites could be up to 5spt at pop 2.

Which two sites are those?

I would prefer either one of those sites because I want sheilds NOW