29-04-2004 05:41									#31
	Re: Why do people not like Muslims? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Maybe the fact that, of the people who have been trying to kill us, they make up a large majority?

It's rather easy to see why people would react negatively to that.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Even on this forum I've seen a good deal of anti-Islam sentiment, some stuff bordering on Islamophobia and generally heightened hostility. On my BNP thread people have even talked about an inferior culture! .

I personally would regard a culture that values the things theirs does as inferior.

	29-04-2004 05:42									#32
	Support Apolyton

If I had my way, we'd nuke the whole damn arab world, and steal all of their oil so my freaking pump prices would go down.... (not literaly, but you understand the level of my frustration)

It is a lot more cost efficient to use nuclear weapons, then this policing action BS... maybe if we started using them, then people would shut the hell up, and behave.

They are never going to like us, so if that is the case, then they should at least fear us.

	29-04-2004 05:44									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: I personally would regard a culture that values the things theirs does as inferior.

Upon what basis? That someone who uses Western-based ideas sees a culture that doesn't have those ideas as inferior because they are different to his?

Thorn: You ever heard of something called "empathy"?

	29-04-2004 05:45									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yeah I have too much of it.... I hear, and feel everyones pain, so the less people there are the less pain I feel, got it?

	29-04-2004 05:47									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I never understood why so many of my liberal bretheren are so negative towards Christianity and other religions, and so apologetic towards Islam. Islam sucks.

	29-04-2004 05:47									#36
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Upon what basis? That someone who uses Western-based ideas sees a culture that doesn't have those ideas as inferior because they are different to his?

No. I just happen to think that a culture that values things like liberty, prosperity, and progress is superior to one that values things like blowing yourself up in the middle of a crowded resteraunt, beating your wife, etc.

(btw, I understand that they're equally "valid" - I'm a relativist - but I'm speaking from my subjective viewpoint)

	29-04-2004 05:50									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

As soon as Christianity becomes the victim of Nazi-like arguments from elements in those societies capable of doing something about it, I'll defend Christianity. I see Christian extremists in the USA and Islamic extremists in very much the same light. The formers destruction, however, has not been seriously proposed.

quote: Yeah I have too much of it.... I hear, and feel everyones pain, so the less people there are the less pain I feel, got it?

Aspirin, lots of it .

	29-04-2004 05:52									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: No. I just happen to think that a culture that values things like liberty, prosperity, and progress is superior to one that values things like blowing yourself up in the middle of a crowded resteraunt, beating your wife, etc. (btw, I understand that they're equally "valid" - I'm a relativist - but I'm speaking from my subjective viewpoint)

Ah fair enough (and ditto), in which case, may I advocate using the term "I prefer such and such ideas" as opposed to "these are superior", since the latter could be confused for an objective statement, also implying that you are ignoring the fact-value distinction, which it seems you are not .

	29-04-2004 05:52									#39
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Aspirin, lots of it

I'm not kidding, I have nightmares and daymares of people around the world, and even here in the US in immense pain suffering, tortured, harmed, dying, beaten, raped..etc..... butchered..... in general.....

If you felt that ****, and couldn't get it to stop then you would be on much medication as I am on.

	29-04-2004 05:56									#40
	Put an end to popups!

Dude you shouldn't be on medication, I say seriously you should be in councelling, that's some bad stuff you've got. Seriously medication isn't going to help. Meditation might do you some good in the meantime perhaps?

	29-04-2004 05:57									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I hate cultural relativism, it turns people into a bunch of raving idiots....

Sure female genital mutiliation is ok in Africa, after all it is their culure... to take some broken glass and cut into the vagina of girls.......

I'm surprised you don't suggest that Nazism was the Germans culture back in 1940s , and we shouldn't judge them... let alone lift a finger against them...

After all there is no evil in the world, just misunderstanding, some culural translation problems that all.

	29-04-2004 05:58									#42
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless 0.0000001

It smells like a troll. It looks like a troll. But it is not one. It is a disguised valid argument.

Look at it this way:
Who supports Israel since the beginning, only making the continuation of this eternal war and humiliation possible.
Who is arrogant enough to call countries "acis of evil", and attack them on a whim?
Who bombed Afghanistan and killed thousands of innocent Afghanis?
Who attacked Iraq and killed thousands of innocent Iraqis?
Who threatened Syria and Iran? Who threatens North Korea? Who started to bomb Serbia? Who bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan, killing many and destroying one of the few pharmaceutical assets of this impoverished country? Who is manipulating oppressive governments everywhere in the world? Who, who who?

The great Satan. The world would be much better when we'll all be tired of you and decide to level you

	29-04-2004 05:58									#43
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy As soon as Christianity becomes the victim of Nazi-like arguments from elements in those societies capable of doing something about it, I'll defend Christianity. I see Christian extremists in the USA and Islamic extremists in very much the same light. The formers destruction, however, has not been seriously proposed.

Fair enough, I see where you are coming from. Of course I have nothing against the Arab people. I think they have a fascinating history, have some great food, and the non-fundamentalist variety are very cool people to talk to.

It's just that, out of all of the religions I have ever studied, Islam is the one that is least likely to have a positive effect, either on an individual or larger-scale, and it confounds me that so many of my fellow liberal-minded folk are so willing to bend over backwards to defend an institution that is, generally speaking, a force of oppression.

If you are simply defending them because they are the "underdog" right now, I can respect that.

	29-04-2004 06:00									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Who bombed Afghanistan and killed thousands of innocent Afghanis?

INNOCENT, INNOCENT, WE SHOULD HAVE DROPPED A BOMB ON YOU TOO.

	29-04-2004 06:02									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And to make my previous post clear:

No, I don't think the US is a great Satan. No, I certainly don't wish for the US to be leveled. I can't stand the idea of war against Iraq, I wonder how I could possibly stand the idea of a war against the US.

I just want to pinpoint that the US has been involved in troubles all around the world. I could have talked about what you did in Latin America, or in Africa as well. The US is constantly using its military might one place or another to coerce other countries. The US sparks trouble all across the world.

And the Americans will find excuses, will be as self-righteous when they defend these actions, as the average Muslim defending the suicide bombers.

You can only imagine the clash when two such big(oted) egoes meet. That's what we are having now. And no offense, Lord Merciless, but you are exactly as bigoted as the average terrorist-supporter. You just support the exactions of the other side.

	29-04-2004 06:02									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I'm surprised you don't suggest that Nazism was the Germans culture back in 1940s , and we shouldn't judge them... let alone lift a finger against them...

I do . Of course, that all changed when they attacked other nations, in which case war was justified, but not simply upon the merits of nazism itself.

quote: Sure female genital mutiliation is ok in Africa, after all it is their culure... to take some broken glass and cut into the vagina of girls.......

A horrifically emotive example but my argument remains unchanged.

quote: After all there is no evil in the world, just misunderstanding, some culural translation problems that all.

Correct, though "cultural translation" as you put it as a larger problem than you imply .

Spiffor:

	29-04-2004 06:04									#47
	Remove this text

Thorn... you better chill... or I will chill you

	29-04-2004 06:04									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'm wondering, what is the Islamic culture? Is it in Bangladesh, which has had a women PM before most Western states have had women leaders (including the one I live in)? Or maybe it's in Turkey, no less secular a society than any in the West? Islamism is evil, but labelling every (or most, etc.) Muslim as a radical Islamist is rediculous.

	29-04-2004 06:06									#49
	Support Apolyton

quote: It's just that, out of all of the religions I have ever studied, Islam is the one that is least likely to have a positive effect, either on an individual or larger-scale, and it confounds me that so many of my fellow liberal-minded folk are so willing to bend over backwards to defend an institution that is, generally speaking, a force of oppression.

Satanism?

quote: If you are simply defending them because they are the "underdog" right now, I can respect that.

Yes. If you're asking me whether I support terrorism, I say that as a pacifist I'll be the first to protest against it. If you asked whether I support the subjugation of women, homosexuals, liberals, intellectuals etc, I say no. I just don't think that I, or anyone else, is so necesarily correct in their views as to force it upon others as "more correct".

On the other hand, I see a hell of a lot of good stuff in Muslim culture, not to mention the degree to which many of the advances in the West have been directly due to Islam.

Nonetheless, I have a date with a duvet

Ming: Who is that in your avatar?

	29-04-2004 06:06									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It smells like a troll. It looks like a troll. But it is not one. It is a disguised valid argument. Look at it this way: Who supports Israel since the beginning, only making the continuation of this eternal war and humiliation possible. Who is arrogant enough to call countries "acis of evil", and attack them on a whim? Who bombed Afghanistan and killed thousands of innocent Afghanis? Who attacked Iraq and killed thousands of innocent Iraqis? Who threatened Syria and Iran? Who threatens North Korea? Who started to bomb Serbia? Who bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan, killing many and destroying one of the few pharmaceutical assets of this impoverished country? Who is manipulating oppressive governments everywhere in the world? Who, who who? The great Satan. The world would be much better when we'll all be tired of you and decide to level you

If you want to dig up every dirt each civilization has, then I have plenty more for you. Do you want some?

To be honest, I don't care **** about all the aggressions you leftists are *****ing about. I only care about who is creating the most wealth and technological advances.

	29-04-2004 06:10									#51
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

LM: If it wasn't for Islam, the West would still be in the Dark Ages . Don't look at things so black and white.

	29-04-2004 06:12									#52
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I do . Of course, that all changed when they attacked other nations, in which case war was justified, but not simply upon the merits of nazism itself. A horrifically emotive example but my argument remains unchanged. Correct, though "cultural translation" as you put it as a larger problem than you imply . Spiffor:

So the murder of 10 million people including Jews is justifiable according to you. That IS what Nazism stood for. But crossing an invisible boundry and attacking other people is not... what kind of screwed up morals, do you have, kid?

	29-04-2004 06:15									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thorn... attack the arguments... NOT THE POSTERS... or your return tonight will be a short one.

	29-04-2004 06:17									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

*thorn retires from the thread*

	29-04-2004 06:21									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And to make my previous post clear: No, I don't think the US is a great Satan. No, I certainly don't wish for the US to be leveled. I can't stand the idea of war against Iraq, I wonder how I could possibly stand the idea of a war against the US. I just want to pinpoint that the US has been involved in troubles all around the world. I could have talked about what you did in Latin America, or in Africa as well. The US is constantly using its military might one place or another to coerce other countries. The US sparks trouble all across the world. And the Americans will find excuses, will be as self-righteous when they defend these actions, as the average Muslim defending the suicide bombers. You can only imagine the clash when two such big(oted) egoes meet. That's what we are having now. And no offense, Lord Merciless, but you are exactly as bigoted as the average terrorist-supporter. You just support the exactions of the other side.

I never cared all this moral superiority/inferiority bullshit. I never claimed to be a better person than them, and in fact I'm a quite evil person. They should be glad I'm not the President of the United States since I have tons of devious madcap schemes going against them.

On a serious note, I'm always supporting the side that is building, creating, and innovating. In the 40 years Arab-Israel conflict, Arab nations such as Egypt and Syria remain the shithole as they have always been, while Israel, despite threatened constantly and sneak-attacked 4 times, has built one of the most intriguing countries in the world. The Hebrew University is one of the best in the world, and Teva Pharmaceuticals is the largest generic drug producer in the world. For me, Israelis represent the builder and innovator, while the Arabs represent the destroyer and stagnator.

	29-04-2004 06:28									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy On the other hand, I see a hell of a lot of good stuff in Muslim culture, not to mention the degree to which many of the advances in the West have been directly due to Islam.

A few flowers on a big pile of **** are not worth picking.

	29-04-2004 06:30									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy As soon as Christianity becomes the victim of Nazi-like arguments from elements in those societies capable of doing something about it, I'll defend Christianity. I see Christian extremists in the USA and Islamic extremists in very much the same light. The formers destruction, however, has not been seriously proposed.

Because Christian extremists do not generally commit acts of violence (at least not on the scale of Muslim extremists). Plus, they do not have a serious chance of subverting the democractic process to create a Christian state.

	29-04-2004 06:32									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Ah fair enough (and ditto), in which case, may I advocate using the term "I prefer such and such ideas" as opposed to "these are superior", since the latter could be confused for an objective statement, also implying that you are ignoring the fact-value distinction, which it seems you are not .

I would also argue that they are inferior in the sense that their methods are less effective, in the same way that a slide rule is inferior to a computer

	29-04-2004 06:33									#59
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Thorn I hate cultural relativism, it turns people into a bunch of raving idiots.... Sure female genital mutiliation is ok in Africa, after all it is their culure... to take some broken glass and cut into the vagina of girls....... I'm surprised you don't suggest that Nazism was the Germans culture back in 1940s , and we shouldn't judge them... let alone lift a finger against them... After all there is no evil in the world, just misunderstanding, some culural translation problems that all.

You don't understand relativism at all.

Relativists can (and usually do) have personal moral views, they just don't make the mistake of saying that their morality has some objective truth.

	29-04-2004 06:34									#60
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I never cared all this moral superiority/inferiority bullshit. I never claimed to be a better person than them

Sorry, I replied to this:

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Exactly, there are Muslims, and Muslims are murdering and destroying in every corner of this planet, from North America to Europe to Russia, from South America to Africa to Southeast Asia. They are the troublemakers of the world. If they don't change their behaviors, then the world will make sure they stop.

Merely claiming that there are many valid reasons to call YOUR country the troublemakers of the world, that should change its behaviour, unless it wants the world to make sure it stops.

quote: On a serious note, I'm always supporting the side that is building, creating, and innovating. In the 40 years Arab-Israel conflict, Arab nations such as Egypt and Syria remain the shithole as they have always been, while Israel, despite threatened constantly and sneak-attacked 4 times, has built one of the most intriguing countries in the world. The Hebrew University is one of the best in the world, and Teva Pharmaceuticals is the largest generic drug producer in the world. For me, Israelis represent the builder and innovator, while the Arabs represent the destroyer and stagnator.

I agree with you on this one, and many Arabs of the intelligentsia are as dreaded as you are from the constant self-moaning that makes them remain immobile. There are some sparks of hope, for example in Qatar, where they are building a very modern university with oil money (unlike the Saudi cretins who spend their oil dollars building palaces and buying expansive cars)