29-04-2004 19:37									#91
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The problems I see, and the things I hate about the arabic islamic society, and the islamic society in countries adjacent to the arab world, that are heavily influenced by it, are those:

-The society is rigid, and change is painful.
-The society doesn't have humanitarian values.
-The society is extremely self-righteous.
-The society is sexist.
-The society is homophobic.
-The society is against personal freedoms.
-The society is excessively allowing for violence.

This should be about it.

I don't hate arabs, I don't hate muslims. I just hate their ****ing society.

	29-04-2004 19:56									#92
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quote: Are you seriously arguing that collectivism isn't a barrier to individual thought? I hardly know what to say now.

Not at all, just that I don't think that Islam is entirely collectivist and that while it is more so perhaps now, it was not always so, and thus is not necessarily so now.

quote: I'm aware of the fact that the Jews are much like the Muslims in this regard, and I do find that questionable as well. The thing is that the Jews are generally well-integrated, self-supporting and educated to an extent significantly above that of the Muslims. And there are a lot less of them, too.

Wow I wasn't expecting that from you! Do you not think that collectivity/individuality is a somewhat too simplistic a definition?

quote: Specifically what makes you think I'm at all interested in getting diverted into a relativistic debate on if it is OK to go around murdering civilians to put forth a political/religious point?

Is that not a good point though? If you are not prepared to debate it, I take it that you concede. The issue of whether or not it is "OK" is irrelevant. It happens, and it is a factor in all human societies. The fact that these things haven't happened here for a fraction of our history is down to very flimsy sociology. You swap the peoples, and you'll find exactly the same thing.

quote: -The society is rigid, and change is painful. -The society doesn't have humanitarian values. -The society is extremely self-righteous. -The society is sexist. -The society is homophobic. -The society is against personal freedoms. -The society is excessively allowing for violence.

Now where does that sound familiar? . Fundamentally, you need to get away from the notion that these things are somehow rarified evil, they are not. Things really have not changed that much and I find it hypocritical that those who extoll the virtues of the West are so fast to blindly condemn these factors without attempting to understand them.

	29-04-2004 19:58									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Is that not a good point though?

No. Now answer my question.

	29-04-2004 20:00									#94
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quote: No. Now answer my question.

What makes me think you need to debate this when brought up is that you are claiming objectivity from a subjective position, and thus need to be able to show that you have cause to do so. In other words, you need to take your "facts" and provide a necessary objective value from them. I maintain that you will be unable to do so.

	29-04-2004 20:04									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy What makes me think you need to debate this when brought up is that you are claiming objectivity from a subjective position..

Take it up with Imran. He's the one argueing that ceartain parts of the Islamic world (the smaller countries seem to be getting on well with the modern world though) are still stuck 600 years in the past and that's simply due to the age of the religion.

	29-04-2004 20:06									#96
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Because they have an annoying habit of killing, or trying to kill, non-believers.

Donning asbestos suit now...

	29-04-2004 20:11									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy In other words, you need to take your "facts" and provide a necessary objective value from them. I maintain that you will be unable to do so.

I maintain that I don't need to in order to condemn the intentional murder of a civilian population by a group of people trying to advance a political/religious agenda. Perhaps you should explain why I need to justify that position when it seems self-evident to most people other than you and che.

	29-04-2004 20:19									#98
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quote: Take it up with Imran. He's the one argueing that ceartain parts of the Islamic world (the smaller countries seem to be getting on well with the modern world though) are still stuck 600 years in the past and that's simply due to the age of the religion.

I concur with Imran though.

quote: Because they have an annoying habit of killing, or trying to kill, non-believers.

A relatively new phenomenon, only among extremists. If that is your perception from sensationalist media, I suggest you examine the issue more closely.

quote: I maintain that I don't need to in order to condemn the intentional murder of a civilian population by a group of people trying to advance a political/religious agenda.

For your own personal opinion or morality, I concur and I share your sentiments. For making a statement of fact, that is a different matter.

quote: Perhaps you should explain why I need to justify that position when it seems self-evident to most people other than you and che.

Can't speak for Che, but it is my opinion that aspects of their culture that I dislike nonetheless do not constitute a reason to say that they are inferior. I merely have a preference to the Western ideology.

	29-04-2004 20:24									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I concur with Imran though.

Then perhaps you could put forth a more cogent defense of the proposition than he has bothered to put forth to date. That at least would be more interesting than the moronic track you seem intent on trying to drag me.

	29-04-2004 20:25									#100
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quote: I was only pointing out that the period ranging from the 8th century to the 14th probably wasn't worse than the Renaissance, contrary to popular belief. For instance, the Church was surprisingly tolerant to Aristotle when he reached the Latin West.

The Church was tolerante of Aristotle because they needed to be! They were losing people because Aristotle's idea of reason were winning over converts. As long as the Church backed Plato, which nobles were really falling for Aristotle, it would be marginalized.

And yes there were many burnings and killings of heretics before the Inquisition.

quote: Don't they have some equivalent of excommunication?

No, the Sunni religion has NO centralization whatsoever.

quote: Especially since you seem to be advancing the notion that Arabic civilization seems to be stuck 600 years in the past and you see nothing wrong with that.

Yep, a sense of proportion helps out in these things.

	29-04-2004 20:30									#101
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quote: Now where does that sound familiar? . Fundamentally, you need to get away from the notion that these things are somehow rarified evil, they are not. Things really have not changed that much and I find it hypocritical that those who extoll the virtues of the West are so fast to blindly condemn these factors without attempting to understand them.

Ok, cut the BS, do you think the things I've listed are a good thing, and OK thing, or a bad thing? You can shove your "understanding of the underlying narrative" you know there.

	29-04-2004 20:30									#102
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Whaleboy, 1300 years is "relatively new"? Theirs is a religion that was founded and spread by the sword.

	29-04-2004 20:34									#103
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quote: Then perhaps you could put forth a more cogent defense of the proposition than he has bothered to put forth to date. That at least would be more interesting than the moronic track you seem intent on trying to drag me.

Different cultures, as we have seen from our own history, go through different stages of development. We tend to head in a more libertarian direction with certain abberations as we go along (numerous reasons). This development is of course affected by several factors I shaln't go into here, but the basic anthropological trend remains.

We can place certain characteristics of some Islamic societies on our own timescale, and correlete them with certain periods in our development. Do we hate ourselves because of the Spanish Inquisition, the English Civil War, the reign of Elizabeth I? Of course not. The issue of OK or not is irrelevant here, we can judge for our society and whether stuff is applicable here, but for other societies? That I'm not certain about. I take a neutral stance, there are ideas I disagree with but their application elsewhere I'm somewhat indifferent about. As a result, there's no better or worse, only different.

	29-04-2004 20:36									#104
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quote: We can place certain characteristics of some Islamic societies on our own timescale, and correlete them with certain periods in our development. Do we hate ourselves because of the Spanish Inquisition, the English Civil War, the reign of Elizabeth I? Of course not. The issue of OK or not is irrelevant here, we can judge for our society and whether stuff is applicable here, but for other societies? That I'm not certain about. I take a neutral stance, there are ideas I disagree with but their application elsewhere I'm somewhat indifferent about. As a result, there's no better or worse, only different.

So, one shouldn't take offense if one's family was killed, say, in Egypt?

	29-04-2004 20:38									#105
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quote: Ok, cut the BS, do you think the things I've listed are a good thing, and OK thing, or a bad thing? You can shove your "understanding of the underlying narrative" you know there.

Benevolent here, indifferent in a neighbour society.

quote: Whaleboy, 1300 years is "relatively new"? Theirs is a religion that was founded and spread by the sword.

You honestly think the ancestor of every Muslim today was forced into it by the sword? . More people were converted into Catholics by the direct consequences of military action than Islam, by quite a long way imo.

	29-04-2004 20:42									#106
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quote: So, one shouldn't take offense if one's family was killed, say, in Egypt?

Emotive terms. If there's a civilian massacre somewhere, I won't be happy about it, and I'll mourn the loss of human life, and be resolved that I wouldn't do such a thing myself but I won't go galovanting around claiming I have a right to stop them.

Nonetheless, take my disdain for that act on its own. Does that constitute a reason for me to dislike Islam?

	29-04-2004 20:46									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy You honestly think the ancestor of every Muslim today was forced into it by the sword? . More people were converted into Catholics by the direct consequences of military action than Islam, by quite a long way imo.

Please point to where I said that. That's what I thought... you can't. It's a nice attempted misdirection, though. The difference, and this is from a non-Christian, is that Jesus never took up the sword to spread Christianity, while Islam was spread that way starting with Mohammed.

	29-04-2004 20:49									#108
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quote: Please point to where I said that. That's what I thought... you can't. It's a nice attempted misdirection, though. The difference, and this is from a non-Christian, is that Jesus never took up the sword to spread Christianity, while Islam was spread that way starting with Mohammed.

Muhammad was a warrior now? Am I missing something?

	29-04-2004 20:50									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel The problems I see, and the things I hate about the arabic islamic society, and the islamic society in countries adjacent to the arab world, that are heavily influenced by it, are those: -The society is rigid, and change is painful. -The society doesn't have humanitarian values. -The society is extremely self-righteous. -The society is sexist. -The society is homophobic. -The society is against personal freedoms. -The society is excessively allowing for violence.

What's scary is that this describes the religous right in United States, to which part of the Republican party panders to.

	29-04-2004 20:51									#110
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MrFun: There really isn't that much difference in that regard between the Conservatives of the West and the Islamic Fundies. They both want to kill each other with equal tenacity.

	29-04-2004 20:53									#111
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Good point -- I think the world might be a better place if we lock up all the Christian fundamentalists with the Islamic fundamentalists and just let them have at it with each other.

	29-04-2004 20:54									#112
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You're on to something there... now which state should play host?

	29-04-2004 20:56									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Muhammad was a warrior now? Am I missing something?

Apparently quite a bit. History texts would be a good start.

	29-04-2004 20:57									#114
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Hmm.. something not important and not too densely populated... Greenland maybe?

	29-04-2004 20:57									#115
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Now there's something I'm with both of you on. Put it in Georgia and I get the popcorn concession.

	29-04-2004 21:09									#116
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My best hope is that Muslimes will ditch Islam in the same way as Christians did to Christianity during the age of Enlightenment.

I'm trying not to hate anyone, because it's bad for my mood and my health. No point in wasting emotions on jerks.

	29-04-2004 21:23									#117
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Which state? I'd go for Utah.

But anyways, can anyone explain the origin of the two branches of Islam?

	29-04-2004 21:33									#118
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quote: My best hope is that Muslimes will ditch Islam in the same way as Christians did to Christianity during the age of Enlightenment.

To what end?

	29-04-2004 22:10									#119
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Whaleboy,

quote: Do you not think that collectivity/individuality is a somewhat too simplistic a definition?

Why the surprised face? I'm not offended or anything, far from, but what else would you expect? Collectiveness is the main thing, I think. Firstly, in a society in praise of individualism, women are measured by their personal qualities and not on account of their gender. Secondly, it's the collective approach - such as being oriented towards the family and religion before everything else - which is the reason why 20-year-old 2nd generation immigrants who have lived their entire life in an otherwise homogenous European country still aren't comfortable speaking the local language. If this can happen around here (and it does), then I dare not even think of the conditions in Kreuzberg or the immigrant-heavy neighbourhoods in various French cities.

Naturally, this lack of integration is caused by a multitude of factors other than religion, including but not limited to income levels, housing conditions and mutual feelings of recjection by the establishment that must all be taken into careful consideration. But when the 'ordinary' tax-payer recognises that the immigration problem mainly lies with those from Muslim countries, that's when he develops his dislike. He's not 'judging other societies' from his own standpoint in support of Arab women or the state of Israel; he's protesting because he's paying the bills for Muslims in his own welfare state - and he's basically doing something of which you must approve as you said, 'we can judge for our society and whether stuff is applicable here'.

(edit: the correct spelling is 'Arab' women of course)

	29-04-2004 22:28									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, the Sunni religion has NO centralization whatsoever.

Wouldnt it be more correct to say that there is no centralized independent religious hierarchy in Sunnism? Rather the State was expected to respond to the wishes of the DECENTRALIZED Ulema, and to enforce Sharia? Which it did to VERY varying degrees through history (though to a much lesser degree than both Islamist extremists and Western Islam haters state) Did not the Ottoman Empire have a full hierarchy of muftis (juriconsults) and sharia courts throughout the empire, generally following one particular school of Sharia law (the relatively "moderate" Hanafi school?) Not sure how this played out in Moghul India, IIUC rather differently than in Ottoman lands.

And of course its possible to have a form of excommunication without either a centralized hierarchy, or a state religion. Spinoza was excommunicated by the Rabbis of Amsterdam, despite the absence of Jewish Bishops, popes, etc. The leading rabbis simply issued a decree, which was respected in other communities out of respect for learning of said rabbis, solidarity within rabbinate, etc. IIUC the issuing of Fatwas, respect among the Ulema, works in a similar manner in Sunni Islam. With certain principle seats of learning (al Ahzar in Cairo, for example) playing an analagous role to that which the great Yeshivas of eastern europe once did, or to what Yeshiva University does today.