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Kuciwalker
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of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
Yes. If you're asking me whether I support terrorism, I say that as a pacifist I'll be the first to protest against it. If you asked whether I support the subjugation of women, homosexuals, liberals, intellectuals etc, I say no. I just don't think that I, or anyone else, is so necesarily correct in their views as to force it upon others as "more correct". |
You aren't forcing your views on a person by preventing others from forcing their views on that person.
You forget that subjugation of women necessarily includes a coerced partner.
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On the other hand, I see a hell of a lot of good stuff in Muslim culture, not to mention the degree to which many of the advances in the West have been directly due to Islam. |
Not due to Islam, to Muslims. Big difference.
Plus, these were Muslims who lived centuries ago.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:35
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I try not to think about this too much.
My view is as such: The majority-or at least a very large portion- of Muslims in the world hate Western civilisation or nations and wish them destroyed. They also think that jews are trying to 'take over the world'.
Therefore, I think it quite reasonable that I dislike that segment of the Muslim population of the world, considering they want to kill me and my family. If I met a Muslim that didn't think that "zionists are evil brutal killers" and "the west is evil, bla bla bla bla" or something like that, I'd be fine with them.
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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My major problem with Islam lies in that it doesn't allow for individualism. The examples are legion with the close ties between religion and politics being the most obvious. I'm aware that religion by definition presupposes submission, but pictures of Muslims gathered in a religous ceremony on their knees, none of their faces (identities) visible, all united and submissive to the highest degree... there's nothing as scary and dangerous as collective identity at this level.
Another example is the need for leaving a permanent mark on children as a religious statement. I can't help but comparing this to the Christian ritual of inaguration that leaves no mark when your hair has dried up and I wonder why this difference exists.
(edit - let's stay with the topic and not begin talking about circumcision's medical benefits etc.)
Last edited by Monk on 29-04-2004 at 16:21
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Whaleboy
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Please make all cheques payable to Whaleboy
Jan 2003
time: 05:35
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quote:
There's a slight difference between peacekeeping in Kosovo and blowing yourself up in a crowded resteraunt.
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Are you sure? If you take military action, you may see as justified others will not concur, and we of all people should understand that. For example, Palestinians will see suicide bombers as freedom fighters wereas you and I see them as murderers. We may see an action as peacekeeping, another will see it as imperialism, and we are no more correct that they are. The person behind the gun is going to have a different opinion to the person in front of it.
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You aren't forcing your views on a person by preventing others from forcing their views on that person.
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Different context to a libertarian society, so principles of libertarianism are not neutral when we are dealing with a society that does not operate on the same premises we do. Your best bet is to view it as something of a house of cards. Picture our society as one cell, Islam as another. No matter how libertarian or relativist one cell is, forcing that upon another on the same level is not a relativist act. That means one should use the cell resting on both, what I call a "pseudo-objective", which says "to each society, his own".
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People are cretins who need an 'other' to bounce their own identities off.
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Very true, after all, we all need our enemies, lest we emulate Socrates.
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then all Muslims are in fact fundamentalists
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That is uninformed BS.
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And I find it quite sad that the religion/civilization has been hijacked to such an extent that OBL can attract a large following.
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As I said, cause-consequence. Things like that don't happen on their own, and the West is very far from blameless.
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the Muslim community as a whole
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A contradiction in terms
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Therefore, I think it quite reasonable that I dislike that segment of the Muslim population of the world, considering they want to kill me and my family. If I met a Muslim that didn't think that "zionists are evil brutal killers" and "the west is evil, bla bla bla bla" or something like that, I'd be fine with them.
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Interesting, you would choose to like or dislike someone based upon their opinions, not their intent to act upon them?
quote:
My major problem with Islam lies in that it doesn't allow for individualism. The examples are legion with the close ties between religion and politics being the most obvious. I'm aware that religion by definition presupposes submission, but pictures of Muslims gathered in a religous ceremony on their knees, none of their faces (identities) visible, all united and submissive to the highest degree... there's nothing as scary and dangerous as collective identity at this level.
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You'll find that in all the Semitic religions. You'll note that collective worship and rituals is no barrier to individual thought. Indeed, before we started screwing with them, Islamic civilisation was one of the, if not the most enlightened civilisations on the face of this Earth, where men were trained as poets and philosophers.
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Monk
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I don't think we're in Brønshøj anymore
Jan 1970
time: 06:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Whaleboy
You'll find that in all the Semitic religions. You'll note that collective worship and rituals is no barrier to individual thought. Indeed, before we started screwing with them, Islamic civilisation was one of the, if not the most enlightened civilisations on the face of this Earth, where men were trained as poets and philosophers. |
Are you seriously arguing that collectivism isn't a barrier to individual thought? I hardly know what to say now.
I'm aware of the fact that the Jews are much like the Muslims in this regard, and I do find that questionable as well. The thing is that the Jews are generally well-integrated, self-supporting and educated to an extent significantly above that of the Muslims. And there are a lot less of them, too.
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our_man
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Glasgow, Scotland
Oct 2000
time: 05:35
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I think the dislike of Muslims has several reasons, but a lot of it is simply down to fear. Think like the red menace in 50's America. There might be cause for some concern, but it's blown completely out of proportion. Not all Muslims are Bin Laden fans the same way not all communists were Stalins buddies back then.
Most of the ones in the West I believe have similar values to our own. Despite the fact that good Muslims aren't meant to be concerned with material wealth, Ireland's Muslim population went to 3,000 to 19,000 in ten years, coinciding with the Celtic Tiger era. In other words, despite the protestations you might here from them, they're here for the money. And that stuff about covering women up - rubbish; let's just say it appears a lot of the Muslim girls are being left on the shelf in Ireland.  You're far more likely to see the guys trying to chat up Christian Irish girls.
This is just for the majority of the Muslims living in the West. I have no problem in condemning the rest of the Muslim world for a litany of abuses. Having non-Muslim friends in Muslim countries and hearing their stories about what back home is like, you get the sense that there is a "we are the master religion" vibe about Islam, and that it is perfectly OK for non-Muslims to be treated as inferiors. A lot of what goes on in Muslim countries is not acceptable and I honestly don't believe we're doing enough to change their way of thinking (for a recent example of our inability to act, see the ongoing genocide in Sudan). I'll freely admit that I'd find it frightening to wake up living in a Muslim country one day, as I believe I would find my rights curtailed.
I still don't believe that the Muslim culture is inferior per se; you can't really label it as a homogenous thing. I've been to Turkey, which is Muslim yet embraces western culture. Another example; a homosexual finished second in the race for the student presidency in UCD this year. The auditor of the Islamic Society let it know that he would have been most displeased if he had won the race; in the next issue of the student paper one of the Muslim students publicly rebuked the auditor for his bigotted stance.
I believe that the West is more tolerant than the Muslim world, but I don't think labelling Muslim culture as inferior is quite correct. Certain values being promoted at the moment in Islam (e.g. the Saudi Arabian branch of the religion, Wahabbism) are the main problem.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
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Ted Striker:
It is difficult for a Muslim cleric to speak up and be listened to, because the Sunni are a disorganized bunch, without an equivalent to our pope. You speak about Sistani, and he's a shi'a, a religion where there is a hierarchy, and a main priest (the Ayatollah).
The Sunnis don't have this kind of hirerachy - as such, any imam condemning a barbarous act (and I trust there are some) will do it in his own little corner.
For example, in France we have tried to prop up the leader of the Paris mosque as the main guy in our Muslim scene. He's an agreeable guy who defends the ideas of tolerance and integration in the French society. Whenever the TV needs a PC Muslim, he gets broadcasted. Yet, it is a purely articificial job done by the TV and the State, because this guy is no more representative of French Islam than Chicago's chief priest is representative of American christianty.
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29-04-2004 06:37
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