29-04-2004 08:15									#1
	Location of City #2 - Red Site Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

There appears to be some confusion about our second city at "red site."

6-6 of Apolyton seems to be the current location but in the original poll on the second city red site was 6-6-9.

So, we need a repoll: is 6-6 indeed where we want to settle, or do we want the original 6-6-9?

	29-04-2004 08:50									#2
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Sorry. I think I created the confusion. I have no strong pref for either, although I think my confused site, 6-6 is better.

	29-04-2004 09:15									#3
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I agree. 6-6 can share the cattle.

	29-04-2004 09:33									#4
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For productivity purposes, it makes little difference. Both sites will be able to be 13spt sites at size 6, but the one at 6-6 can be built one turn sooner, and can use the Cow when Poly isn't.

Personally, I didn't even realize that GK or I had put it in a different location than was polled on. I apoligize if any of you thought that I had moved it for my own plan. That is not the case.

	29-04-2004 10:16									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal Personally, I didn't even realize that GK or I had put it in a different location than was polled on. I apoligize if any of you thought that I had moved it for my own plan. That is not the case.

Uh Huh SUUUUURE Don.

Seriously, I think 6,6 is better as well.

Settle our second city already for petes sake and get the WF producing sheilds for my er Apolyton glory

	29-04-2004 10:21									#6
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6,6 looks good

	30-04-2004 01:35									#7
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Settle now! That is a good spot for a military base. Chop for a barracks and start pumping units to protect the ivory site.

Since it can share the cattle it should grow nicely as well.

	30-04-2004 01:43									#8
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SO's point sums it up nicely.

When do we build the barracks, though? I suggest warrior, warrior, barracks, settler, hoplites...

	30-04-2004 01:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Krill SO's point sums it up nicely. When do we build the barracks, though? I suggest warrior, warrior, barracks, settler, hoplites...

Im not sure what the MOI has for a build que.

But we got enough warriors, I say we go barracks/hoplites/worker, in some kind of order and then set up a palace prebuild for Zeus.

	30-04-2004 02:00									#10
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I suggested the warriors for MP. It can build both in ten turns, less if Worker two moves 33, roads then mines. worker1 moves 2 when it has finished, then mines. When W1 finishes, it joins W2 to finish the mine quicker. The main tiles have been developed, we're pulling in 13+ bpt, and will rarely have to use the lux slider.

	30-04-2004 02:06									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Krill I suggested the warriors for MP. It can build both in ten turns, less if Worker two moves 33, roads then mines. worker1 moves 2 when it has finished, then mines. When W1 finishes, it joins W2 to finish the mine quicker. The main tiles have been developed, we're pulling in 13+ bpt, and will rarely have to use the lux slider.

I dont disagree but what are we going to do with all these reg warriors IF we dont have iron

But I guess we will know in about 12 turns or so. (If we have iron or not)

	30-04-2004 02:15									#12
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 Im not sure what the MOI has for a build que. But we got enough warriors, I say we go barracks/hoplites/worker, in some kind of order and then set up a palace prebuild for Zeus.

I'm concerned about the prebuild here. Why build a barracks then? Once we start on Zeus the barracks will be worthless for training (good for upgrades). How about a temple in the city we will build zeus. It is going to grow to size 6 and the temple will help with happiness and push our borders.

I would prefer to build Zeus to our south as city 2 should be a military base to protect the east. In the west we'll only need to worry about barbs.

Build the Zeus city on the tobacco and build a temple as the city will grow beyond 6 since it is on the river. There is a forest and shielded grass to help in the production. It also is very close to the capital so should have little corruption.

	30-04-2004 02:35									#13
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Zeus produces 4 hp ancient cav.
Zeus with a barracks produces 5 hp ancient cav.
Elite ancient cav have 6 hp.

The Zeus site will have a barracks, preferably produced prior to zeus.

I am looking at our situaton in the 10-15 turn range to determing which will be the first build:

Right now, I am leaning towards Barracks (with forest chop), followed by Hoplite x 2, then a worker or a settler depending on how the food is managed.

	30-04-2004 02:38									#14
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The problem with the Tobacco site is it doesn't have NEARLY the production power of the red site at 6-6 (where it is now).

	30-04-2004 03:02									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Donegeal The problem with the Tobacco site is it doesn't have NEARLY the production power of the red site at 6-6 (where it is now).

True. I guess I am more concerned with tying up this city with building Zeus instead of it producing military units. How long would this city take to build Zeus (200 shields) compared to the tobacco site?

The tobacco site would not need to build any military. Build a temple and then start the prebuild. When are we getting Masonry so we can build the palace? (Edit: Just realized we got Masonry from PAL) We can build the barracks after Zeus if need be and chop the forest for the barracks. That would result in at most 2(?) non veteran Ancient Horsemen. This city can then start pumping out worker/settlers since it will have grown to a large size.

City 2 would be for producing military units only to protect the east.

	30-04-2004 03:07									#16
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The sim definately would be helpful in this situation.

Maybe I'll run it tonight. I'll assume the following:

Apolyton build: warrior/settler
City 2: Barracks w/ forest chop, 2 hoplites, worker

Settler moves to tobacco and settles, starts palace (no temple)

Last edited by SirOsis on 30-04-2004 at 03:19

	30-04-2004 11:04									#17
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Zeus first, barrack later. Otherwise the barrack cost in maint and delays Zeus.

	30-04-2004 17:43									#18
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What Jagjef said. That would be something like 20-30 gold of maintance for a barracks that did nothing.

	30-04-2004 21:22									#19
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I messed around with the sim and I can say I don't know much about it.

I did find a discrepancy. For some reason the Palace takes 300 shields but in the civlopedia it says it costs only 100. I found this out because I had 15 turns to go on the palace and I swiched to Zeus only to find I would waste 4 shields on the switch.

The tobacco site would be good for zeus assuming it gets connected with a road and tile improvments are done quickly (possibly before settling the city) and have MP in the city unless a temple is built. The site might also be moved over by one to access an additional bonus grassland.

I don't think city 2 should be used for zeus. It should be a military base.

That is why I am discussing other possible sites for Zeus.

I'll continue messing with the sim to get more concrete stats but at a quick study if city 2 builds barracks/hoplite/hoplite/worker it would not finish zeus much ahead of the tobacco site.

	30-04-2004 22:27									#20
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Palace amounts increase from a base amount, as you get more cities. As no one builds a Palace (but it makes an effective shield storage for Wonder prebuilds) without a GL, it might have changed from PTW.

One thihg that I have learned about having different cities use a good bonus tile, is that it's really hard to schedual the use for the 2 (or sometimes, 3 cities) effectively. It all depends on what your doing in those cities, not just now, but 20 turns from now. Saying that more than one city can use it, but that is only really effective if they use it for equil time periods. And then there is growth to consider, i.e. what tile your going to grow to be using. A Lot of variables, when looking at multi use of tiles.

Trust me, I know......

E_T

	01-05-2004 00:52									#21
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Palace cost is increaasing with time. At the end the palace needs 1000 shields to be completed.

	01-05-2004 01:48									#22
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6-6-9 because this imedately takes more territory into our empire in the direction of our oppoents as well as reducing temporarly gap with the Ivory city.

	01-05-2004 04:19									#23
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6-6 would give the second city access to the Cows, OK, but will Poly ever have tiles good enough to NOT work the Cows? I would hope Poly would be on them gas-machines for most of eternity to come. Anyone who has considered sharing a single tile amongst multiple cities knows what E_T is talking about, and although some of us may not have gone through that much of it, it is a right pain to coordinate.

6-6-9 gives us a close city whilst meaning that Ivory is within a single cultural radius growth in case we need it. And being able to get to Ivory sooner is terrific, where it could be so important and it is uncertain where PAL and CDG will move to next.

	01-05-2004 05:07									#24
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At this stage of the game, sharing one tile between two cities is a pain, but doable. Later in the game, we probably will not micromanage this much. However, at this time, it is a benifit and as such we should IMHO do it. Cultural growth means cultural improvements, and this city is a war unit producer, not a research center. The idea of getting the ivory with this city is not a good one, as it could too easily be stolen by ploping a city down next to the ivory (although with one already closser to both other teams, I am not worried about keeping this one for ourselves - only about getting zeus first).

	01-05-2004 10:00									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt 6-6 would give the second city access to the Cows, OK, but will Poly ever have tiles good enough to NOT work the Cows? I would hope Poly would be on them gas-machines for most of eternity to come. Anyone who has considered sharing a single tile amongst multiple cities knows what E_T is talking about, and although some of us may not have gone through that much of it, it is a right pain to coordinate.

It is a pain, yes; and sometimes it does not even work out all that well. But it can be useful; and as for poly being on it like gas-machines, yes, but for only half the time. 2 food is wasted every cycle poly works the cow all through; that means half of the time in its 4-turn growth cycle, it can be freed for use by another city.

I'm not saying that will translate to direct doubling of the cattle's yield since, as you say, tile sharing does not always work out perfectly. But it's certainly better than regular old 10-turn growth in the new city.

quote: 6-6-9 gives us a close city whilst meaning that Ivory is within a single cultural radius growth in case we need it. And being able to get to Ivory sooner is terrific, where it could be so important and it is uncertain where PAL and CDG will move to next.

Temples cost 60 shields. That's 3 hoplites, or the shield costs of two settlers. Better to just settle by it later; that will also prevent it being grabbed by a combat (or at any rate hostile) settler.

	02-05-2004 00:56									#26
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Planting the second city at 6-6-9 would allow that city to be equal distance between the Capital and future Ivory city.

	02-05-2004 18:15									#27
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Well I'm glad for two things:

1. The result is what I agree with
2. the result is clear enough that my vote would not have made a difference anyway!

* MrWhereItsAt can hear Arn laughing at him