05-05-2004 08:51									#31
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He more than made it acceptable. We both agree that he probably was not really Christian. But as any good(machiavellian) politician will do, he used it as an asset to consolidate his power. He even went so far as to persecute non-christians and christians from different sects. At the time, all christians did not have the same exact beliefs. Some did not believe in the old testament for example. They were persecuted.

My readings also tell me that constantine ruled the east and western empires. So his influence is on east+west=all of christianity.

The previous mormon comment was directed elsewhere.

	05-05-2004 08:52									#32
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Who is your patron saint AH?

	05-05-2004 09:20									#33
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Saint Martin as a naming saint.

Saint Joseph as a baptism saint.

Saint Peter as a confirmation saint.

Of the 3 probably Saint Joseph has had the biggest influence on my life in a protective sense, but I'm also very fond of Saint Peter and his influence has been more inspirational. To me, Saint Peter is the ideal warts and all christian man. I'm more like the 2 Saint Martins, the soldier and the priest, in personality.

Unlike you Ted, I have powerful friends

	05-05-2004 09:23									#34
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If the mormon's accept the bible that was compiled by the Roman catholic church or some other offshoot then they are tainted with paganism. The reason why people question the mormon's is the beliefs that they add to christianity, same for voodoo and christian science.

	05-05-2004 09:34									#35
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They don't PA.

They accept a version that was given to Joseph Smith through revelation. That version is the original word that existed before Roman Catholicism.

	05-05-2004 09:59									#36
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Aeson,
I won't pretend to be an authority on the mormon belief. I just see being a moromon as the same way I see the difference between a christian, jew, and muslim. while they have some differences they still come from the same origins.

The mormons believe that there version of religion is the correct one just like baptists, catholics, methodists, shiites, jews, and sunni's among a grwoing list of religion.

According to your statements the mormons believe in the same god that Jews, Christians, and muslims believe. Even if it is their belief that there version of religion is prior to the RC influence that does not make it tru. half the proof that there are exposed to RC is in there name. Later day SAINTS.

	05-05-2004 11:00									#37
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Using the term 'saints' is not restricted to RC or RC based traditions. The LDS use of the term is certainly much different than the RC use as I understand it. All members of the LDS church are considered latter day 'saints'. To them it basically means a follower of Christ, or more specifically, the true doctrine of Christ.

To claim that being exposed to something is the same as being an offshoot of it is rather ludicrous in any case. You obviously have been exposed to RC to some extent, as you are referencing them. You show your exposure to Mormonism in the same light. Does that make what you think and believe in an offshoot of RC and LDS doctrines?

As for the difference in the version of the Bible, it just comes down to what it is claimed to be based off of. What it actually is based off of is a matter of faith. Maybe Joseph Smith did receive revelation, was basing things off of what he had seen in other religions, or was halucinating. Either way, the version definitely isn't the same as the one used in RC.

While I see your point that RC has influenced the Christian world in general, it doesn't mean that any specific aspect of RC has been adopted by any group of Christians, or even that to be Christian is to be an offshoot of RC. Jesus existed before RC (if you think he existed at all). Christians existed before RC. The writings in the New Testament existed before RC, and indeed other writings dealing with Jesus' life are out there that were not accepted by RC. Basing a religion off of these things is possible.

In short, RC != Christianity.

	05-05-2004 11:14									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus He more than made it acceptable. We both agree that he probably was not really Christian. But as any good(machiavellian) politician will do, he used it as an asset to consolidate his power. He even went so far as to persecute non-christians and christians from different sects. At the time, all christians did not have the same exact beliefs. Some did not believe in the old testament for example. They were persecuted. My readings also tell me that constantine ruled the east and western empires. So his influence is on east+west=all of christianity. The previous mormon comment was directed elsewhere.

right

he persecuted christians from different sects

but some of those sects survived

that is why what you are saying is BS

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 11:16									#39
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Which sects would those be that have the same influence on christianity that catholocism does?the same influence or access to the bible, the calender, and world history?

	05-05-2004 11:19									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Unlike you Ted, I have powerful friends

	05-05-2004 11:22									#41
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SAINT MARTIN CABALLERO PWNZ ALL!!!

St Martin of Tours for you Eurocoms

Last edited by Ted Striker on 05-05-2004 at 11:27

	05-05-2004 11:31									#42
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I just posted that to annoy the protestants

	05-05-2004 12:05									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Which sects would those be that have the same influence on christianity that catholocism does?the same influence or access to the bible, the calender, and world history?

catholocism does have the most influence

but we can see the effects of Constantine by looking at churchs who were not effected by him and by studying history

he did not found modern christianity, like some people are currently implying or saying

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 12:07									#44
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my statement was that your opening post (especially "My question is would'nt this pervision of christianity make all christian religions corrupt and false religions?") was BS

since we now (and protestants in the past) had and have access to both preconstantine histories and churchs that he did not affect

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 12:08									#45
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and the bible is basically the same for them

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 12:12									#46
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There are no churchs that were not affected by him.

-Jam

	05-05-2004 16:35									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia God cares about our desire to know him

That is one of the things which put me off Christianity.

I very much like and admire the Christian ethic and I am inspired by the story of Jesus. But I cannot help thinking that a God who creates the universe for the purpose of peopling a part of it with thinking, feeling creatures of whom he demands love is rather pathetic.

When He goes on to give these people free will but to judge them harshly if they fail to employ it to elect to love Him he is acting in a way which seems downright petulant.

I certainly can't reconcile this with a perfect being. Wanting the love of his creation demonstrates an unmet need.

I just finished "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time" (a good read) and the parents (of an autistic child) in that make no demand on their son that he love them. Nor do they judge him for being unable to do so. And I would think pretty ill of them if they made any such demand.

Of course if I had faith I would just say to myself that it is not surprising to find that God cannot be understood by thinking of Him as a though he is a human being. Lacking faith, though, I am put off a God who acts in a way I would think naff if I did it myself.

	05-05-2004 17:20									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus If the mormons are worshipping the same Jesus of nazareth that was in the bible. If the mormons believe in the bible as a religous text then they are an offshoot of roman catholicism.

The Roman Catholic Church did not author the books of the Old Testament, or the New Testament, nor compile them into a Bible.

quote: They accept a version that was given to Joseph Smith through revelation. That version is the original word that existed before Roman Catholicism.

Our official version of the Bible is the King James Verson; the Joseph Smith Translation is placed in the footnotes, or for longer verses, placed in it's own section, with the Bible Dictionary and Index. The JST is not the official translation, since Joseph Smith was killed before he completed it.

quote: According to your statements the mormons believe in the same god that Jews, Christians, and muslims believe. Even if it is their belief that there version of religion is prior to the RC influence that does not make it tru. half the proof that there are exposed to RC is in there name. Later day SAINTS

As someone mentioned, the Catholic Church did not create the term Saint, nor did it create Christianity. Therefore, your argument that any church based on Christ had to come from the Catholic Church is wrong.

	05-05-2004 18:01									#49
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It could be argued that all Christian forms of worship go back to St Paul, in the sense that he took it to the gentiles and made it OK for them to believe in Jesus.

Needless to say, the believers who had actually known Christ on earth were a bit miffed with him for enlarging the club.

Given the historical obliteration of the Jews that Believed Jesus was the Messiah, he did the right thing...

...or was that the Nestorian heresy? Are their still Christians today who insist that circumcision ("the Covenant with God") is necessary to be a Christian?

Last edited by Cruddy on 05-05-2004 at 18:39

	05-05-2004 18:36									#50
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Saint Paul has a lot to answer for

	05-05-2004 19:09									#51
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader That is one of the things which put me off Christianity. I very much like and admire the Christian ethic and I am inspired by the story of Jesus. But I cannot help thinking that a God who creates the universe for the purpose of peopling a part of it with thinking, feeling creatures of whom he demands love is rather pathetic. When He goes on to give these people free will but to judge them harshly if they fail to employ it to elect to love Him he is acting in a way which seems downright petulant. I certainly can't reconcile this with a perfect being. Wanting the love of his creation demonstrates an unmet need. I just finished "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time" (a good read) and the parents (of an autistic child) in that make no demand on their son that he love them. Nor do they judge him for being unable to do so. And I would think pretty ill of them if they made any such demand. Of course if I had faith I would just say to myself that it is not surprising to find that God cannot be understood by thinking of Him as a though he is a human being. Lacking faith, though, I am put off a God who acts in a way I would think naff if I did it myself.

I see what you're saying, and understand why you would feel that way given the limited information about God that Christianity has to offer.

Here is what I believe:

The problem with Christianity is that it's too simplified. Christianity says that either you do God's will or BAM! - eternal suffering. Conversely if you do do God's will BAM! - eternal bliss.

Our spiritual journey towards God does not end with mortal death. There is a lot more for us to learn before we can even stand in God's presence. A spiritual career so fulfilling that we can't even begin to imagine awaits us. God's creation consists of a lot more than just heaven and earth. As we ascend and grow through the ages we get to experience an enormous range of God's creation.

Our best concept of God is that of a loving Father. You're right to be put off by a concept of a God who acts in a way that you would think naff if you acted that way yourself. Would a loving Father ever condemn one of his children to eternal suffering? Of course not! God gives us many many opportunities to redeem ourselves when we fail him. God doesn't punish us, we effectively punish ourselves when we stray from the plan he has for us because we miss out on so many good things. It's not that God makes selfish demands of us - he gives us fantastic opportunities, and it's up to us to decide if we wish to take advantage of those opportunities.

	05-05-2004 19:22									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski There are no churchs that were not affected by him. -Jam

by affected I meant ones he influenced (like the RC), not the ones he persecuted

if you mean otherwise you are talking BS

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 19:24									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The problem with Christianity is that it's too simplified. Christianity says that either you do God's will or BAM! - eternal suffering. Conversely if you do do God's will BAM! - eternal bliss.

no it doesn't

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 19:33									#54
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Thank you for that, Caligastia.

I will chew on what you say.

Last edited by East Street Trader on 05-05-2004 at 19:38

	05-05-2004 19:42									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller no it doesn't

Yes it does.

	05-05-2004 19:43									#56
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader Thank you for that, Caligastia. I will chew on what you say.

You're welcome. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

	05-05-2004 20:09									#57
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quote: by affected I meant ones he influenced (like the RC), not the ones he persecuted if you mean otherwise you are talking BS Jon Miller

At the time there was only one church. And that became the RC church because of Constantine (hence the Roman part of RC)

The Arian heresy came 100 years later, and was eventually completely eradicated, and the split into Catholic and Orthodox was not to happen for many more centuries.

So take your BS accusations back, and apologise, please.

-Jam

	05-05-2004 20:27									#58
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nope

there were other churchs which had already split off

I was not refering to the Orthodox/Catholic split

Jon Miller

	05-05-2004 21:33									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Africanus Most Christians do what Jesus says. He says to accept the fact that you are a sinner, try not to sin and ask for forgiveness for said sins. You do not have to stop sinning.

wrong. That is a false teaching in many churches. We do have to stop sinning. If you ask forgiveness but keep sinning, then you obviously did not really mean it. Christians are called to true repentance, where you ask for forgiveness, and then abstain from that sin forever.

	05-05-2004 21:48									#60
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I think what is being said, the diplomat, is that the Christian church believes there has only ever been one perfect human being - Jesus. All the rest of us are created imperfect. But happily that alone does not condemn us in the eyes of the Christian God.

So if you repent, try to do better, but your imperfection brings you low again, you do not have to despair.

You repent again and try hard all over again.

No doubt God is particularly pleased if there are some hardy souls who manage to abstain from sin forever. But he is soft hearted enough to rejoice each time a sinner repents - whether they manage the "abstain for ever" bit thereafter or not

Quite why the question as to whether a soul is in a state of grace at just exactly the moment the person dies is so important I do not know. That seems to reduce matters to the level of a lottery. One mght have expected that if the person had managed nearly a lifetime in a state of grace and then just some small slip right at the end God might have been more pleased than if they had lived immersed in sin for the vast majority of their life but had the luck to repent just for a little while immediately before death.

But someone more knowledgeable than I can no doubt explain that.