05-05-2004 21:56									#61
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader I think what is being said, the diplomat, is that the Christian church believes there has only ever been one perfect human being - Jesus. All the rest of us are created imperfect. But happily that alone does not condemn us in the eyes of the Christian God. So if you repent, try to do better, but your imperfection brings you low again, you do not have to despair. You repent again and try hard all over again. No doubt God is particularly pleased if there are some hardy souls who manage to abstain from sin forever. But he is soft hearted enough to rejoice each time a sinner repents - whether they manage the "abstain for ever" bit thereafter or not Quite why the question as to whether a soul is in a state of grace at just exactly the moment the person dies is so important I do not know. That seems to reduce matters to the level of a lottery. One mght have expected that if the person had managed nearly a lifetime in a state of grace and then just some small slip right at the end God might have been more pleased than if they had lived immersed in sin for the vast majority of their life but had the luck to repent just for a little while immediately before death. But someone more knowledgeable than I can no doubt explain that.

I agree. God is compassionate to give us second chances as often as we need.

My concern is that I have heard some christians go too far with this, and say that since we are imperfect and are probably going to sin again, and God is compassionate and will forgive us, that therefore we don't need to try to stop sinning. They'll say it is ok to sin, because God will always forgive us. And I don't think that is right.

Yes, God is good and will forgive us, but we still need to make a real, honest effort to stop sinning.

	05-05-2004 22:08									#62
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All Religion is a bunch of ideologies that serve no other purpose but to lie to the masses in order to make them feel better about whatever irks or scares them, and to help remove the feelings of regret. It began that way, and it still is today. Only now it has a formality, a history, and a language tied to them that gives each religion a sense of rightousness which is actually a cultural influence in nature rather than a devine guidance or law.

	05-05-2004 22:46									#63
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My understanding of LDS beliefs is that the Book of Mormon supercedes or takes precedent over the Bible when there is conflict. For this key reason, Mormons are not generally accepted as Christians outside of their own faith. Most Christians believe in Jesus as he is portrayed in the Bible. Since the Second Coming has not occurred, any other testament is heresy.

One of the good things the RC church inherited from the Jews was the tradition of Biblical scholarship. To be ordained a priest, one must spend many many years studying the Bible, commentaries on the Bible, commentaries on the commentaries, ancient languages, history, etc. Of course, one of the bad things about the RC church is that the church became very top-down because of this.

The Protestest Reformation, while also a good thing, put more emphasis on one's own personal interpretations of scripture. While this is not necessary bad, a book like the Bible is difficult to fully comprehend for the layman. There is much historical and political context that simply not common knowledge and therefore makes understanding difficult.

	05-05-2004 22:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yes it does.

no it doesn't

mine doesn't for example

Jon Miller

	06-05-2004 00:04									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller no it doesn't mine doesn't for example Jon Miller

Your church doesn't believe in the day of judgement?

	06-05-2004 00:31									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho It is commonly accepted fact that Christainity is a fusion of pagan beliefs with a few original elements.

Just what common elements are you refering to?

	06-05-2004 00:32									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Japher All Religion is a bunch of ideologies that serve no other purpose but to lie to the masses in order to make them feel better about whatever irks or scares them, and to help remove the feelings of regret. It began that way, and it still is today. Only now it has a formality, a history, and a language tied to them that gives each religion a sense of rightousness which is actually a cultural influence in nature rather than a devine guidance or law.

I take it you don't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea then?

	06-05-2004 01:32									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Japher All Religion is a bunch of ideologies that serve no other purpose but to lie to the masses in order to make them feel better about whatever irks or scares them, and to help remove the feelings of regret. It began that way, and it still is today. Only now it has a formality, a history, and a language tied to them that gives each religion a sense of rightousness which is actually a cultural influence in nature rather than a devine guidance or law.

I command the foul spirits of German teen-angst antiestablishment Goth rock that possess thee: BEGONE! Begone, I say!! And don't come back until you have a less tired little blurb of postmodernism to bore us with, y'hear?

	06-05-2004 01:38									#69
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quote: I take it you don't believe that Moses parted the Red Sea then?

Nope... and in the bible, god did

quote: I command the foul spirits of German teen-angst antiestablishment Goth rock that possess thee: BEGONE! Begone, I say!! And don't come back until you have a less tired little blurb of postmodernism to bore us with, y'hear?

I'm not goth, nor a teen, I'm a deist.

	06-05-2004 04:56									#70
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quote: Originally posted by East Street Trader I think what is being said, the diplomat, is that the Christian church believes there has only ever been one perfect human being - Jesus.

Nope, Mary was perfect as well

	06-05-2004 07:35									#71
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Was he perfect or without sin or as close to perfect/without sin as possible. I'm no authority but I was under the impression that jesus had moments of doubt and that he often prayed to god for guidance. He probably also passed gas, had bowel movements, did not have access to rightguard which would cause him to seem less than perfect.

	06-05-2004 07:47									#72
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Heretic! Burn him!

	06-05-2004 15:11									#73
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I know very little about catholicism but I rather think the obsession with Mary is one of the things which distinguishes it from other sects.

Nice to know that your cynicism does not extend to motherhood, horse.

	06-05-2004 17:02									#74
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Having doubts is not a sin. Giving them power over you is. Kinda like having your eye caught by a hot girl's rear is not a sin, but sitting there thinking what you'd like to do to that butt is. If the thought enters your head but you don't entertain it, it's just a temptation.

	06-05-2004 17:15									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Having doubts is not a sin. Giving them power over you is. Kinda like having your eye caught by a hot girl's rear is not a sin, but sitting there thinking what you'd like to do to that butt is. If the thought enters your head but you don't entertain it, it's just a temptation.

Whereas, in Islam, it's not a sin until you give in to your "temptation" or "entertainment" and actually do something to that butt .

Thinking of something or entertaining it (regardless of how trivial the difference between the two) does not make one a sinner, doing it makes. I find this approach more reasonable and sensible .

	06-05-2004 18:09									#76
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Yaaay Islam!

	08-05-2004 06:06									#77
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quote: Does ANY so-called-christian actually do what Jesus says in the bible? -Jam

All have sinned and fallen short of the law.

Redemption cannot be obtain by our works, but desires.

	08-05-2004 06:09									#78
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quote: The LDS do not consider themselves descended from or linked to the Catholic Church. Therefore, no.

Then how can they be Christian? Surely the Catholic church has some elements of Christianity, even if you believe they have since become corrupt.

All this is saying is that the only Christians are those who are members of the LDS.

	08-05-2004 06:11									#79
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quote: Was he perfect or without sin or as close to perfect/without sin as possible.

He is the Passover lamb without blemish. He is without as much sin as possible not because he is man, but because he is both man and God.

This allows him to suffer the same temptations that we do, but also to resist them.

quote: I'm no authority but I was under the impression that jesus had moments of doubt and that he often prayed to god for guidance.

Doubt is not sinful.

quote: He probably also passed gas, had bowel movements, did not have access to rightguard which would cause him to seem less than perfect.

Again, none of these have anything to do with sin.

	08-05-2004 06:15									#80
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quote: Thinking of something or entertaining it (regardless of how trivial the difference between the two) does not make one a sinner, doing it makes. I find this approach more reasonable and sensible.

Anacyreon:

Can one sin by not doing what one ought to be doing, by omission as well as commission?

By ignoring the connection between thought and action, one neglects an important element of sin. Sin is purposefully done. The will must be involved in order for sin to be involved. By saying that one need only do the wrong action, you condemn those who do so inadvertently.

	08-05-2004 06:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then how can they be Christian? Surely the Catholic church has some elements of Christianity, even if you believe they have since become corrupt.

Same way you can be human without decending from my parents. My parents have elements of humanity (pretty much all of them ), but it doesn't mean all humans came from them.

	08-05-2004 06:23									#82
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So when did a 'Catholic' church come into being?

	08-05-2004 06:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then how can they be Christian? Surely the Catholic church has some elements of Christianity, even if you believe they have since become corrupt. All this is saying is that the only Christians are those who are members of the LDS.

Yes, the Catholic Church does have many elements of christianity; so do Protestant churches. This is saying that the LDS church does not consider itself a reformed descendent of the Catholic Church. It is our belief that a reformation was not enough; a Restoration was necessary to fully restore the church set up by Christ.

	08-05-2004 06:29									#84
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quote: It is our belief that a reformation was not enough; a Restoration was necessary to fully restore the church set up by Christ.

Yet:

quote: the Catholic Church does have many elements of christianity

If the Catholic church has many elements of Christianity, and more than a Reformation, but rather a restoration must be done, in what way does this deny a heritage to the Catholic church?

My own church believes precisely as you do, in critiquing the reformers for falling into the same errors as the Catholics. Yet, it is still possible to acknowledge the existence of a Catholic church from the very beginning. One could say that in restoring, you make a truly Catholic church by restoring the ideals of Christianity, held by the Catholic church initially, but deviated from in later years.

	08-05-2004 06:36									#85
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Well, here's what the Catholic Encyclopedia has to say:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm

quote: The combination "the Catholic Church" (he katholike ekklesia) is found for the first time in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The words run: "Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people be, even as where Jesus may be, there is the universal [katholike] Church." However, in view of the context, some difference of opinion prevails as to the precise connotation of the italicized word, and Kattenbusch, the Protestant professor of theology at Giessen, is prepared to interpret this earliest appearance of the phrase in the sense of mia mone, the "one and only" Church [Das apostolische Symbolum (1900), II, 922].

So the first reference to the term (which probably didn't signify an actual name of an organization given the context) was in 110AD.

---------------

In the context of this thread 313AD when Constantine declared Christianity to be a legal religion.

	08-05-2004 06:40									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi One could say that in restoring, you make a truly Catholic church by restoring the ideals of Christianity, held by the Catholic church initially, but deviated from in later years.

This is what we believe, although not that we are the true 'Catholic Church'. Following the death of the Apostles, Christ's church began being corrupted as the converted followers slowly began reintroducing their previous customs and traditions, as scripture was lost, corrupted and/or misinterpreted. These changes resulted in what we call the Great Apostasy, in which the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. In Acts 20, Paul says

“I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

“Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them”

The churches that formed taught parts of Christ's teachings, and had a 'form of godliness', but were not the one true church Christ established.

Christ's original church was restored by Joseph Smith, according to our belief, with the keys of the priesthood returned to the earth.

	08-05-2004 06:45									#87
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quote: My question is would'nt this pervision of christianity make all christian religions corrupt and false religions?

Edit: Posted by the threadstarter, but applicable to Aeson's last post.

Aeson:

You touch on a good issue. The main bone of contention for Mennonites and many of the groups derived from the anabaptists is over this conjunction of the state and church, shared by both the Reformers and the Catholic church.

I agree with the threadstarter, that this is a wrong turn for Christianity, but where I disagree is that the church is irredeemeably corrupt. The religion is no more false, because of the errors of those conducting the church, than the sacraments are no longer effective because of the sins of the priest. The religion is still true, the sacraments are still efficacious in spite of the state of the church.

The reason we can say this is that the true authority of the church must always rest on Christ himself, and not on the organisational body associated with Christ. The church that goes astray usually acknowledges a seperate authority from Christ, whether it be the state, or some other body.

	08-05-2004 06:49									#88
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Of course none of us live like Jesus taught us. It's a guidline, not blueprints to follow step by step. We can sin because according to our religion he died for our sins so you know.. I can check out all the outrageous porn and feel good about it too, swear, cheat and still get in. And he went all kinds of painful things and died for us sinners, so he didn't die for nothing and you know it would be a shame if you lived perfectly because then he died for .. well nothing in your part, just for the rest of us.

But just follow the guidelines and you might get off the track but get back on it and continue on it and everything will be fine. It's a test what you want and who you choose when it's all over, you get to taste the forbidden stuff too so you can be objective and choose like you want to. Free will. How can you choose not to join him if you have never experienced the nasty? That would be just stupid, you have to be able to put some weight on things and consider your options so what you choose is genuine and is your own choice.

Last edited by Pekka on 08-05-2004 at 06:54

	08-05-2004 06:49									#89
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To clarify, that was Pax Africanus' question not mine.

	08-05-2004 06:49									#90
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quote: This is what we believe, although not that we are the true 'Catholic Church'.

quote: not the one true church Christ established.

Are these terms synonymous? Or are you using the two to mean different things?

What do you mean by the term catholic?

quote: in which the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth.

Where is there any record of God withdrawing this authority from the priesthood? Did not Christ say that the gates of hell would not prevail against his church?