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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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It is like saying Satan prevailed over God and Christ when Jeruselem was captured during the Old Testament, or that death prevailed over Christ. Neither was true.
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Remember Christ praying about the cup that he was to drink? Christ knew that he would be killed, in order to fulfill the prophecies, and the plan that God had established. Afterwards Christ resurrected.
Secondly, when Jerusalem fell, look at all the OT prophets who foresaw their destruction as Israel had become more wicked than all the other nations around them. Thus, even though Jerusalem fell, God did not withdraw all his promises to the nation of Israel. Rather, he preserved them, even as he punished them, in sustaining them during the Exile.
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many verses in the Bible that speak concerning an apostasy.
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Well, list them please, and see if any of them have to do with the total apostasy of his church.
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I mean the church that has been filled with corruption, a church that allowed men like Leo X to become their pope.
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But not catholic as in universal?
As for the conduct of the popes, can you properly say that Joseph Smith was perfect, as Christ was perfect?
Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 08-05-2004 at 07:24
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Verto
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Remember Christ praying about the cup that he was to drink? Christ knew that he would be killed, in order to fulfill the prophecies, and the plan that God had established. Afterwards Christ resurrected.
Secondly, when Jerusalem fell, look at all the OT prophets who foresaw their destruction as Israel had become more wicked than all the other nations around them. Thus, even though Jerusalem fell, God did not withdraw all his promises to the nation of Israel. Rather, he preserved them, even as he punished them, in sustaining them during the Exodus.
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Exactly.
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Well, list them please, and see if any of them have to do with the total apostasy of his church.
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It is almost certain you will disagree that these verses speak of a total apostasy of the church, but here are a few.
Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Acts 20:28-30
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2 Timothy 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
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But not catholic as in universal?
As for the conduct of the popes, can you properly say that Joseph Smith was perfect, as Christ was perfect? |
Of course not. But since no man can be truly perfect, does that mean we do not need to strive for righteousness, or that those expected to be leaders in Christ's church need not at least try to avoid vice?
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I agree with the threadstarter, that this is a wrong turn for Christianity, but where I disagree is that the church is irredeemeably corrupt. The religion is no more false, because of the errors of those conducting the church, than the sacraments are no longer effective because of the sins of the priest. The religion is still true, the sacraments are still efficacious in spite of the state of the church.
The reason we can say this is that the true authority of the church must always rest on Christ himself, and not on the organisational body associated with Christ. The church that goes astray usually acknowledges a seperate authority from Christ, whether it be the state, or some other body. |
You don't really agree with me. I'm saying that if the base of all western religion is corrupt at the starting point then all restorations of the base and all reformations of the base are tainted by man. The only way to correct this would be to somehow go back to before before. TO go back to before Constantine legalized christianity as a minimum.
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Dr Strangelove
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I seem to recall the LDS broadcasting advertisements offering to send viewers free copies of the Bible. I was under the impression that the version they send out is one of the more widely accepted versions like the King James or the Standard. Am I wrong?
The Episcopalian viewpoint on the meaning of the "Catholic" church is that all Christians are members. We believe that the Catholic church is spiritual not structural. The word catholic means universal afterall.
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Dr Strangelove
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Yes, I think it's the KJV that they advertise on TV. They give it out along with the Book of Mormon in the hopes of luring folks who would like a free Bible into accepting the Book of Mormon simultaneously. If they give out the KJV how can they claim that it's corrupted? Wouldn't that be sorta like the John Birchers giving out copies of the Communist Manifesto along with the Bill of Rights?
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SnowFire
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New York City, NY
Jan 1970
time: 00:35
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Some random comments:
"catholic" does refer to the church as a whole (heck, you see it on things like the Nicene Creed); "Catholic" usually refers to the RCC, at least in my head.
Dr. Strangelove: Nobody says they have to be consistent. Besides, the LDS have changed quite a bit. A friend of mine found an absolutely hillarious pamphlet from them back in the ~60s or so, when civil rights was starting to get going. It explained how God had his own special plan for the lesser races, and well, you know, there's no shame in a lower destiny! Nothing wrong with working the ground and all! That kinda stuff. It was their attempt to try and reach out and explain their position- ironically enough, probably a softening of it.
That said, they've done some serious missionary work overseas, so who knows.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Anacyreon:
Can one sin by not doing what one ought to be doing, by omission as well as commission?
By ignoring the connection between thought and action, one neglects an important element of sin. Sin is purposefully done. The will must be involved in order for sin to be involved. By saying that one need only do the wrong action, you condemn those who do so inadvertently. |
I understand the idea to draw an earlier line in the mind as a precaution lest that any malicious thought be translated into action.
But this is different from the assertion that thinking of sin does not actually make you a sinner. Committing a sin does. If you can fend off the "sinful thought", then fine. But if you don't or can't, all the while not translating the thought into action (in effect making a decision not to commit sin), it's only natural that you are not a sinner.
This does not preclude the special condition of those who commit sin inadvertantly, as you suggest, because a God that's ultimately just knows the circumstance surrounding the act.
I guess the difference of opinion here is doctrinal if one still insists thinking makes a sinner, in which case I just wanted to put in my perspective as a point of comparison on this  .
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Aeson hit it right on the head:
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Missing many of the "plain and simple truths" is the phrase used very often in describing the Bible by Mormons. That is not to say they don't find value in the Bible, it is still considered a holy scripture. |
When we make the statement that the Bible was changed/corrupted/mistranslated, some people will get the impression we are trashing it, or we are trying to replace it with the Book of Mormon. Neither is the case. |
Really? Maybe you're ignoing your own "plain and simple truth". You condemn the other Christian churches as corrupt because historically they have had their share of corrupt leaders. Yet as it has been pointed out in this thread the LDS has dabbled in bigotry and racism. Then there is the practice of polygamy. Originally it was embraced by the LDS, now it is condemned.
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Verto
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
You condemn the other Christian churches as corrupt because historically they have had their share of corrupt leaders. |
More for their loss and alteration of doctrine. They do and preach many good things, but do not have the fullness of the gospel.
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Yet as it has been pointed out in this thread the LDS has dabbled in bigotry and racism. Then there is the practice of polygamy. Originally it was embraced by the LDS, now it is condemned. |
Ah yes, the racist LDS. Persecuted in Missouri because it was feared a LDS majority would rid the state of slavery. The LDS church has neither practiced nor preached anything that was not first done so by the Lord to the Israelites.
And polygamy is not condemned. It is no longer practiced, and thus those who continue to do so are condemned, but the concept/principle of it is not something rejected by the church.
Last edited by Verto on 09-05-2004 at 04:58
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
More for their loss and alteration of doctrine. They do and preach many good things, but do not have the fullness of the gospel.
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So the Mormon view of (other) Christians is sort of like Islam's. That's comforting.quote:
Ah yes, the racist LDS. Persecuted in Missouri because it was feared a LDS majority would rid the state of slavery. The LDS church has neither practiced nor preached anything that was not first done so by the Lord to the Israelites. |
I think that polygamy was the major issue. Didn't the LDS try to form their own counties with their own sheriffs, thus allowing them to claim the right to write their own local laws permitting polygamy? quote:
And polygamy is not condemned. It is no longer practiced, and thus those who continue to do so are condemned, but the concept/principle of it is not something rejected by the church. |
Uhhh..... If you condemn the practitioners aren't you condemning the practice?
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
How is this any different from say, the Catholic church?
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I don't recall any of the Catholics here accusing me of apostacy or corruption. They're more likely to over-generalize and accuse Protestants of bigotry and narrow-mindedness. That's different.
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In Missouri? Polygamy, while never widespread, was not commonly practiced until the Latter-day Saints entered Utah. I do not believe polygamy was ever an issue in Ohio, Missouri or Illinois. It was made clear that much of the actions taken against the LDS was because Missouri was a slave state, and the populace feared that the LDS members moving from the North would sway the vote.
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I recall that the Mormons established a settlement, I've forgotten the name, and unilaterally announced that their community was not within the jurisdiction of the local county. Upon hearing rumors of polygamy some of the law officers attempted to enter the township and were resisted with force.quote:
Polygamy is practiced only when the Lord "authorizes" it. Thus, as revelation was received ending the practice of polygamy for now, those who do so are in violation of the Lord's commandment. |
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08-05-2004 06:51
. Outside that... pretty much everything goes IMO. If it doesn't hurt anyone, then it should be ok.
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