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Pax
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My point is that the bible is corrupt. Has been corrupt at least since Emperor Constantine time. My point is that most christian practices are in fact pagan. This in effect makes western religion pagan because the source is pagan.
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Alexander's Horse
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Panmunjon, hands up!
Jan 1970
time: 15:35
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Scene 2
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Jesus speaks
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[music]
JESUS CHRIST:
How blest are those who know that He's a god. How blest are the sorrowful. They shall find consolation. How blest are those of gentle spirit. They shall have the earth for their possession. How blest are those who hunger and thirst to see right prevail.
RANDOM:
[cough cough]
JESUS:
They shall be satisfied. How blest are those whose hearts are pure. They shall see God...
MANDY:
Speak up!
MAN:
Shh.
BRIAN:
Quiet, Mum.
JESUS:
How blest are those of gentle...
MANDY:
Well, I can't hear a thing.
JESUS:
...spirit. They shall have the earth for their possession.
MANDY:
Let's go t' the stoning.
MR. CHEEKY:
Do you mind? I can't hear a word he's saying.
JESUS:
...who hunger and thirst to see...
MAN #1:
I think it was 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'
JESUS:
...right prevail.
MRS. GREGORY:
Ahh, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
GREGORY:
Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
MR. CHEEKY:
See? If you hadn't been going on, we'd have heard that, Big Nose.
JESUS:
...hunger and thirst to see...
MAN #2:
You hear that? Blessed are the Greek.
GREGORY:
The Greek?
MAN #2:
Mmm. Well, apparently, he's going to inherit the earth.
GREGORY:
Did anyone catch his name?
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Oh, it's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time.
[music]
FRANCIS:
Well, blessed is just about everyone with a vested interest in the status quo, as far as I can tell, Reg.
REG:
Yeah. Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem.
JUDITH:
Yes, yes. Absolutely, Reg. Yes, I see.
MANDY:
Oh, come on, Brian, or they'll have stoned him before we get there.
BRIAN:
All right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to the Life of Brian page / On to the next scene!
 Attachment: cheesemakers.jpg
This has been downloaded 57 time(s).
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
My point is that the bible is corrupt. Has been corrupt at least since Emperor Constantine time. My point is that most christian practices are in fact pagan. This in effect makes western religion pagan because the source is pagan. |
nope deffinitely wrong, as is seen in the writings preconstantine
if you think that what people decided was correct is wrong, than feel free to follow others (just like some christian churchs do)
but the picking of what books are cannon, and the arguments about that, were mostly decided by constantines time, and the ones that we use are like those found from ~110 AD
in fact a few differences were noted, and there are Bibles out now with slight differences depending on the source (nothing to major unless you start looking at books that the major religious leaders before constatine didn't like)
Jon Miller
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Pax
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I'm not arguing whether or not there is a god.
Working off the assumption that there is a god and there was an original message. That message is susceptible to tampering from the moment it was entrusted to man. Any man being fallible and with sin could alter the message. Constantine is a point where it was likely altered. The alterations by man explain the many contradictions in the message. If there is a god he does'nt come around and speak directly to the masses in this day and age. He usually works in mystrious ways or so I'm told. That could be me as his vessel telling you guys to turn away from the false bible.
If the ideology was developed by man and changed as it was passed from hand to hand the only way you would be able to get to the root is if you had a copy of the original.
has anybody seen the original?
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Jon Miller
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would you please read some actual Bible scholarship on the issue?
maybe you would learn something
not to say that many don't agree with you, it is just that they put it as much ealier than constantine (like Paul)
the possibility of tampering I don't have a problem with (I think that there might have been a little)
the big deal about Constantine is just BS though, and is BS for many known reasons, which I have stated
Jon Miller
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Elok
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Land of Ramen Dragons
Mar 2003
time: 00:35
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Let's see if I'm following you, PA (er, Pax Africanus, not Park Avenue, in case he posted here):
Constantine is suspect as a messenger of God because he doesn't seem at all compatible with our impression of Jesus. Therefore, the New Testament standardized under his supervision is suspect, and probably has pagan influences and other corruptions from the original. Is that what you're saying?
One problem: Our entire impression of Jesus comes from the New Testament itself. Every whiny atheist who ever complained on this board has made it clear, with ludicrous amounts of evidence, that Jesus is only barely mentioned in passing by other historical texts. There are Gospels which are not included in the NT, some of which are available today, but most of them were excised for pagan influence themselves, and a quick reading today shows that judgment correct. Someone posted excerpts from the Gospel of Thomas here on the OT a few months ago, and the pagan mystery religion influences were painfully obvious. Lots of crap about the Secret Wisdom for the Chosen and so on.
So who's this "Jesus" you're talking about? Are you pulling a Thomas Jefferson, taking the original scriptures and deciding certain parts are spurious, and if so, what criteria are you using besides your own personal feelings?
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Pax
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I did point out that Jesus and Constantine are two different types of people. I did state that Constantine's character does not fit with Christian principles.
However, that's not the basis of my argument. I point to the concept of saints as a obvious link to paganism.
I point to the fact that Constantine had motive and opportunity to influence the bible during his reign.
I point to the many contradictions in the bible as evidence of tampering.
There are several signs that would make the bible suspect. If you look at all of my posts you will see only a few of them.
From my OPEN MINDED position of unbiased assessment of the good book, I firmly believe that it has been made by men as a tool for subjugation. The words in the bible have been used to justify everything from the Spanish inquisition to slavery to hate groups. I maintain that the people who wrote the bible were very smart and knew exactly what they were doing.
Honestly, the existence of a god or jesus is not really even relevant to my point. My point is that Emperor Constantine more than likely conspired to bring into existence a tool that he could use for his own purposes.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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Okay, here's my response to your long post.
Regarding Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
To whom will he send this famine? To Christians, or to the nation of Israel? The context suggests the latter since the entire book of Amos deals with prophecies directed to the future of the nation of Israel. Indeed, there was a long gap in prophecies, where none would provide the word of God to Israel, and this can be said to be the fulfillment of this prophecy.
Regarding: Acts 20:28-30
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers.Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.
How does this pertain to the total apostasy of the church? Read the words. Some may lead some members of the church astray, but many will hold to the faith and reject these wolves. Remember, God always keeps a number of those faithful to himself, regardless of the threats posed to the church.
Remember Elijah's lament? And God's response?
1 Kings 19:18
"Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel-all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and all whose mouths have not kissed him."
Regarding 2 Timothy 3:1-5
1 THIS know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
You miss this very important line: 2 Tim 3:9
"But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone. "
Regarding 2 Timothy 4, in context:
"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge:
Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.
It's clear that some will perservere even as many fall away.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
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quote:
He doesn't allow the Israelites to be carried into Babylon because one of them told a fib. However, when they turn their back on God, when they make false idols and worship other gods, then it is a different story.
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No, because of a fib, he kept all members of the wicked generation wandering in the desert 40 years until they all died.
He preserved Caleb, because he had the honesty to tell people the true account of the promised land.
Numbers 13:26-33
They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.
They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.
But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.
The Amalekites live in the Negev; the Hittites, Jebusites and Amorites live in the hill country; and the Canaanites live near the sea and along the Jordan."
Then Caleb silenced the people before Moses and said, "We should go up and take possession of the land, for we can certainly do it."
But the men who had gone up with him said, "We can't attack those people; they are stronger than we are."
And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size.
We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
God's response?
Numbers 14:36-8
So the men Moses had sent to explore the land, who returned and made the whole community grumble against him by spreading a bad report about it-
these men responsible for spreading the bad report about the land were struck down and died of a plague before the LORD .
Of the men who went to explore the land, only Joshua son of Nun and Caleb son of Jephunneh survived.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Elok
Thoughts are not always acted on consciously, as the consequence of a neat rational chain of logic. Often a subtle desire or hidden urge will, when nurtured with fantasy, keep growing and growing until it manifests itself in passive-aggressive behavior, minor rudeness, or other "nice" forms of evil. You can't fail to control even your mind and honestly expect to control the rest of your body. |
I get your point and if one is able to stop sinful thought in his head then it's fine, my hat's off to the guy  . I accept the arguement that thoughts are what leads to actions. But my emphasis here is on the human quality of making decisions. If such a subtle process as you describe above is at work, you'd never be able to stop it even if you thought/convinced yourself you refused to 'think' about whatever sin is in question.
The absurdity of the logic of 'thinking is sin' becomes more clear if you put the logic into another realm: law enforcement. If the government had a way of mind reading, and caught you thinking (in all sincerity) 'I'm gonna kill this bastard' who just scratched your brand new BMW, you thought about it all day and although you finally decided against this because it's against the law, since thinking is enough to make you responsible (as in sinning), you get a life sentence (as if you killed him). See how horribly flawed the logic is?
On a wider perspective that made me put in my contribution here is that, the understanding that this life is instead a trial for us and a test for which path we choose, for the things we do , for the way we affect the world and people around us and we'll be judged for them and them only is much more sensible, reasonable, common sense, just and sincere for me.
quote:
Interesting side debate about whether a sinful thought constitutes a sin. I think that in Judaism, most thoughts do not, however jealousy does. |
Hi Azazel . Why only jealousy? Is it defined as the most poisonous thought?
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Pax
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How did you know?
I guess it was my crazy opinions on a god you can't see.
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Dr Strangelove
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I still don't see any proof that Constantine influenced what was transcribed into the Bible. He encouraged the leaders of the Church to convene the Council of Nicea, but I don't think there's any evidence that he came down to Nicea and dictated what was to be put into the Bible.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax Africanus
I did point out that Jesus and Constantine are two different types of people. I did state that Constantine's character does not fit with Christian principles.
However, that's not the basis of my argument. I point to the concept of saints as a obvious link to paganism.
I point to the fact that Constantine had motive and opportunity to influence the bible during his reign.
I point to the many contradictions in the bible as evidence of tampering.
There are several signs that would make the bible suspect. If you look at all of my posts you will see only a few of them.
From my OPEN MINDED position of unbiased assessment of the good book, I firmly believe that it has been made by men as a tool for subjugation. The words in the bible have been used to justify everything from the Spanish inquisition to slavery to hate groups. I maintain that the people who wrote the bible were very smart and knew exactly what they were doing.
Honestly, the existence of a god or jesus is not really even relevant to my point. My point is that Emperor Constantine more than likely conspired to bring into existence a tool that he could use for his own purposes. |
well
we have the books that were uncluded pre constantine
we have the books that weren't included pre constantine
we have teh letters of the people arguing about which were right
why don't you read and find out?
JM
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Pax
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You guys are right. Constantine would never conspire to change a document for political gain. The Romans are just not that type of people. They had laws after all.
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Pax
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Elok,
My point is that there were no saints in the christian religion prior to men putting them there. Prophets are not the same as Saints. Moses was a Prophet but not a Saint.
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10-05-2004 09:20
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