05-05-2004 11:38									#1
	Official Poll: Strike at Ruhrpott Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

This is a multiple option poll, so vote for ALL options you agree with.

This is an official poll to decide whether or not we wish to engage in an attack with the aim of destroying GWT's Forbidden Palace city, Ruhrpott. The potential effects of this attack are immense, but the cost is high. So what do we do.

Please note that these options refer only to what we, Apolyton will be undertaking. We may get CFC on board and they may be able to expore some of the other options. But this poll is about what we are going to plan to be doing.

The discussion thread can be found here, as per the Constitutional requirement.

This poll will run for 3 days.

Please note that the 'Abstain' option has no bearing on the effect of the poll, and is only used for record-keeping purposes.

Last edited by Trip on 05-05-2004 at 11:45

	05-05-2004 11:44									#2
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For reasons which I have posted elsewhere () I believe we should strike at Ruhrpott in 15 turns and Ruhrpott alone. The potential effects are great. While I would like to be able to go after GWT's Leo's and their original core, we simply do not have the resources to engage in both operations at the same time (though we can talk with CFC about this possibility...).

Fundamental Law of War #1: dividing your forces leads to defeat.

	05-05-2004 11:59									#3
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um... has there been enough time for discussion according to the constitutional ammendment before this "official" poll was posted?

	05-05-2004 12:00									#4
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As for the issues... I agree we should go for Ruhrpott.

However, I do not believe we have adequately discussed the other available options enough to yet make a wise decision about them. In fact, the issues with whether to go after the pyramids that E_T brought up have been in discussion for less than 12 hours.

	05-05-2004 12:14									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos um... has there been enough time for discussion according to the constitutional ammendment before this "official" poll was posted?

Yes, the amendment simply requires a "discussion thread to be posted beforehand." Vague and exploitable, yes, but we basically have to decide whether or not to begin preparations for this on THIS coming turn.

As for your other concern (putting it up for a vote so soon), that was a consideration of mine when I set this poll up. But I decided it was best to start it now.

I do admit that some of the other options (going after Pyramids, etc.) haven't been thoroughly debated yet, but there is still time to determine the exact landing points of our invasions if there are more "kill 'em now" votes than there are "leave 'em alone" ones.

And to a certain extent we do have to decide which theater we want to send units to now... we have very little breathing room when it comes to turns to shuffle units here and there, especially with the boats. The Galley currently watching the GWT crossing point will take 11 turns to get to the Ruhrpott invasion jumpoff point. If we delay a single turn and end up deciding to go for Ruhrpott alone then that's either a boat we're waiting extra turns for or a boat we won't have available.

We can't hold the save and stall forever. We have to get the ball rolling. That's one of the issues with these out-of-the-blue plans... you need as much time as possible but you don't have it available. That having been said, hopefully there will be enough interest in this situation to drive activity up in order to get more discussed in the time that we do have.

	05-05-2004 12:18									#6
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Good points, all around. The timing of what we need to do and the critical shortage on the necessary fleet are factors we have to contend with.

Alright, we might as well try to at least decide the pyramids issue ASAP so we know where to send all of our boats.

	05-05-2004 12:20									#7
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Additionally, if anyone votes and later changes their mind, any of the mods can change the votes in the polls (in case, say, a convincing argument appears for striking at Webringen in a couple days).

	05-05-2004 12:21									#8
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For now, I'm inking in a vote only for going after their FP in Ruhrpott. I worry about the feasibility of taking out the Pyramids or any other city in their core.

I'm open to being convinced, mind you, but without a thorough analysis of that option, I worry about the feasibility... it seems too far away to reach easily over land, would be difficult to approach by sea without being spotted, and would divide our forces (which are in short supply for such an attack).

	05-05-2004 17:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Additionally, if anyone votes and later changes their mind, any of the mods can change the votes in the polls (in case, say, a convincing argument appears for striking at Webringen in a couple days).

Dammit! I have NEVER been able to do this!

	05-05-2004 19:51									#10
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The form of this poll surprises me. The situation in which ten people want to strike Ruhrpott and ten different people want to strike GWT's core are quite different from the situation in which ten people want to strike both, yet this poll will yield the same results.

	05-05-2004 21:12									#11
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Strike! Strike! Strike!

	06-05-2004 05:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster The form of this poll surprises me. The situation in which ten people want to strike Ruhrpott and ten different people want to strike GWT's core are quite different from the situation in which ten people want to strike both, yet this poll will yield the same results.

Given the poll result so far, I doubt that clarity concerning the poll result will be a problem.

	06-05-2004 05:49									#13
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I've begun a real planning thread for this invasion. You can find it here.

(Apologies for posting this so many times, I just want to make sure people are able to find it. )

	06-05-2004 07:51									#14
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Fight, fvck, or fart, but we should do something

	06-05-2004 10:11									#15
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Let's do all three!

	06-05-2004 13:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Given the poll result so far, I doubt that clarity concerning the poll result will be a problem.

My concerns were not about clarity of the poll itself, but about the results depending too much on the structure of the poll.

But - given the overwhelming "yes" to a Ruhrpott strike, it isn't important, really.

	06-05-2004 17:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Let's do all three!

TWISTED!

	06-05-2004 19:50									#18
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BF sighting!!!!!

Trip I love this idea, I really do and you and I briefly discussed this in chat.

The only thing Im going to suggest is that we make sure that hostilities between CDG and GWT are almost over.

With all the Elites GWT has, Im just worried we raze the FP and the next turn they get a GL and a few turns later viola, the FP is rebuilt.

Im not saying we wait until all hostilities are over because as you said in chat then GWT will be redeploying there army.

So its a balance judgement call.

I think it needs to be at the end of the inevitable. To minimze the likelyhood of a GL.

So all Im saying is beready to do this but if its turn 16 or 17 then so be it.

	06-05-2004 20:02									#19
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Given the rate of GWT's advance, I highly doubt there will be much major fighting left to be done between CGN and GWT by the time we land. This is both a blessing and a curse, I suppose. Them getting another GL and rebuilding their FP is something we cannot control... landing and razing Ruhrpott is. All we can do is hope for the best and fulfill our end of things.

	06-05-2004 20:09									#20
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Ok as long as we are doing it at the end of hostilities or are forced to do it after they are over (If CDG does not hold out that long), Il be happy.

I agree 100% we can not control the possibility. Im just looking to limit the possibility.

Heck they could get a GL on the counterattack from this OP.

As long as that thought goes into our planning Im a happy guy.

We are going to spend a heck of a lot of resources doing this, and once we do it, GWT will guard that FP like Fort Knox after they rebuild the hard way or thru a poorly timed for us GL, ie we wont get another chance.....

Thanks

	06-05-2004 20:34									#21
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The main issue there is the location of the bulk of GWT's forces. If they defeat CGN too soon and get too many units back by Ruhrpott, then we won't even be able to take Ruhrpott in the first place and they won't need another GL to get back into this thing.

It's a very fine balance...

Last edited by Trip on 06-05-2004 at 21:15

	06-05-2004 21:15									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The main issue there is the location of the bulk of GWT's forces. If they defeat CGN too soon and get too many units back by Ruhrpott, then we won't even be able to take Ruhrpott in the first place and they won't need another GL to get back into this thing. It's a very find balance...

I concur

Lets hope miccofl can keep them busy enough and/ or the possible CFC "diversion" is a go and it succeeds in confusing them.

	08-05-2004 08:32									#23
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What would be the best use for the troops when Ruhr is gone? Pillaging would annoy them regardless of any GL they may get/have, but wouldn't take TOO long to replace. Taking on cities may be difficult by then (unless the whole area is lightly guarded and they are low on cash), but would result in a non-trivial loss of pop (if we raze some), that would hurt for a long time.