07-05-2004 07:19									#31
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Um... we don't have the economy yet to support a fullscale invasion, I'd think.

There's a d*** good reason why what we are planning is a hit-and-run pillaging raid.

We must also remember that even if WE got a GL, it would not do as much for us as THEM getting a GL would do for them. If we knock out their FP, we don't want them to rebuild it. That's a hell of a lot more important than whether we can rush a single wonder, assuming our GL ever makes it back to our homeland.

We go in, we raze their FP and a few other cities around it, then we get out. CFC goes in, attacks with some riders to take down a critical city or two (perhaps three?), then they get out or disband.

This is a hit-and-run attack. I do not believe that our military can truly face the full force of the GWT military once it makes its way back up to their core at 9 tiles of road movement per turn.

Besides... if we actually pull our forces OUT OF THERE, we'll have more around on our continent when GWT finally gets to Navigation and tries to invade us.

	07-05-2004 07:35									#32
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IF we pummel theri asses they won't even have a chance to invade. The plan I like is to keep them of the defensive. A quick strike and then pull out lets them plan an invasion of our lands. Lets keep the war over there and not here.

	07-05-2004 07:41									#33
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Things are not quite all lined up yet to get the absoulute most out of a GA.

It is still sometime away. (The optimal time)

Actually if this trike succeeds in knocking out the FP then it will surely give us enough breathing room to get the GA when we want it.

	07-05-2004 07:42									#34
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This quick strike will wreck a substantial portion of their economy. It may be fast and easy (or so we hope it will be, anyway) but that doesn't mean its effects won't be huge.

And as Arnelos says, any forces we can pull back safely to the homeland are forces we won't have to re-build.

Razing a few more cities in their west won't matter when Ruhrpott is gone; saving as much as we can on the reconstruction of our Knight force will.

	07-05-2004 07:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Razing a few more cities in their west won't matter when Ruhrpott is gone; saving as much as we can on the reconstruction of our Knight force will.

Very True!

According to Trips sim, there wont be any cities above 1 spt anywhere on that side of the continent (old Firaxis lands)

	07-05-2004 07:57									#36
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If we want this to be a true invasion to knock out GWT we're going to need a lot more than what this plan includes. WE're already going to be spending ~1800 gold in 10 turns on this. We don't have the resources to sustain this kind of effort for so long.

We take out Ruhrpott and their FP, minimizing GWT's chances of getting another GL to rush their FP back. Doing so will make us superior economically. After that GWT won't be able to catch us and we can finish them off after our GA. They'll be taken down so far we will have little left to fear of them.

	07-05-2004 08:05									#37
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We should take out as much of their West as possible. IF they do get a GL somehow, then they could rebuild a FP and their economy/manufacturing center would be revived very quicky. IF we took out the cities surrounding the area there wouldn't be a core of cities in which a FP would benefit.

	07-05-2004 08:40									#38
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree We should take out as much of their West as possible. IF they do get a GL somehow, then they could rebuild a FP and their economy/manufacturing center would be revived very quicky. IF we took out the cities surrounding the area there wouldn't be a core of cities in which a FP would benefit.

1) The entire premise of this invasion is surprise. If we try to do more than go in-and-out with the single original goal then the greater the chance of failure.

2) The longer we stick around the more units we will lose and the greater the total cost will be.

3) The more we fight with GWT the more chances they get to get a new GL.

If we invade with this force, hit them quickly and leave within ~3 turns the chances of them getting another GL are next to 0. If we seek to do something as ambitious as taking out all of their west then the chances of them getting a second free FP are much greater. Even if we do take out all those cities if GWT gets a GL then their recovery will be much faster than if we take out Ruhrpott alone.

	07-05-2004 09:25									#39
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Will the second wave of caravals end their turn in the city ?

Because on that turn of disembarkment, the knights will be in the field on attack, leaving the city reasonably unprotected.
If GWT takes the city, then we lose all of the caravals and our escape route.

	07-05-2004 09:57									#40
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BF,

Your logic simply does not apply to this situation. We CANNOT take out their entire territory. We simply don't have the means. The moment we land 30 knights (the construction of which will take every bit of economic power we, CFC, and CGN have to muster toward that goal), their 60+ Ansar Warriors are going to be heading back up to take us on at 9 tiles per turn. We only have so many turns to run around in their territory before we'll open the next save to find our entire stack of knights dead.

The best move we have is to raze something CRITICAL like their FP and then get the hell out of there with our 30 knights before they can knock out our stack.

This is a hit-and-run operation because we simply don't have the means to do anything more than that.

Best of all, the hit-and-run will give us an ECONOMIC ADVANTAGE that will let us stomp them later.

	07-05-2004 10:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Will the second wave of caravals end their turn in the city ? Because on that turn of disembarkment, the knights will be in the field on attack, leaving the city reasonably unprotected. If GWT takes the city, then we lose all of the caravals and our escape route.

Good point. We're better off leaving the caravels OUT OF THE CITY.

Caravels have 2 defense. Both galleys and caravels only have 1 attack. We're bound to lose some ground units ANYHOW.

I'm reasonably sure we'll have enough caravels still around to evacuate whatever forces remain.

Thoughts?

	07-05-2004 10:24									#42
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Our intial landing group of Muskets will hold the city with the caravels for one turn (the disembarkment turn) and then we should move them out of the city.

However, I do believe we should sack more than one city in this attack. We'll have THIRTY knights over there! In three turns we will definately have the power to sack more than one city.

We need to do as much damage as possible as GWT may already have a leader sitting in their capital, or they may gain one in future turns during their continuing war with CGN. If they simply resettle and rerush a FP, our ONE CHANCE at this attack will be for naught.

Destroy their second CORE and it no ammount of rushing or GLs will save it.

--Togas

	07-05-2004 18:10									#43
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Let's make sure we nail their FP city, and then see where we stand. If we have enough (healthy) units left to rip up the surrounding cities, great.

-Arrian

	07-05-2004 22:22									#44
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I agree with taking out as much as possible after Ruhr is destroyed. Frankly I'm more concerned that ND will get another leader before the end of the CGN war than against us, as they can control the tempo there, I doubt they would leave elite ansars up north just in case.

Plus razing cities would net us a bunch of new slaves, which would be great for when we get steam.

	07-05-2004 22:40									#45
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sleepy sighting

	07-05-2004 23:30									#46
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con spamming

	08-05-2004 00:25									#47
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Arnelos spamming

	08-05-2004 01:09									#48
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Posts soon to be deleted...

	08-05-2004 01:11									#49
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Not to distract from everyone's fun, but what should we do about a possible security breach?

	08-05-2004 05:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 sleepy sighting

	08-05-2004 06:04									#51
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Not to distract from everyone's fun, but what should we do about a possible security breach?

Fixed...I hope.

OAN...

Let's kill all we can kill with those 30 Knights! Let's also get CFC to get an attack going against GWT 2 turns after we land, that will more than divide GWT forces since they won't know what to protect and what to leave alone. It would be absolutely wonderful if they decided to burn and run from a city or two!

	08-05-2004 07:19									#52
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Starting to post some maps, to help with Logistical and Operational planning here.

E_T

	08-05-2004 08:02									#53
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I tend to think that we should do the "quick strike then get the f*uck out" route.

why?

GWT can easily plan a counter invasion not too far into the future and we would best use our army for home defense. THe idea here is merely to destroy GWT's second core and level the economic playing field for the future. Remember, this strike will not automatically win the game for us, it will only make winning a bit easier.

	08-05-2004 08:39									#54
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Togas - would they really think that abandoning their cities would be preferable to us taking them? Having their cities gives us only a very small bonus - a base that hs a slightly higher defense bonus, and a place to heal in. They will surely not think we will be getting any shields or gold out of these far-off lands....

Having said that if we DID convince them somehow we were out to conquer and that they should abandon rather than risk loss, that would be EXCELLENT!

	08-05-2004 10:52									#55
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If they leave their cities, we can raze them for slaves, potentially taking said slaves with us when the fleet leaves. (Though the truth is, our ships are probably going to be packed, meaning we'll only have a little room generated by loses.)

	08-05-2004 10:52									#56
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Do we have the upperhand in this equation? No, we don't. Some risk needs to be taken. The safe route will ensure a safe win for GWT. We need to turn the tide more than a smidgeon.

	08-05-2004 11:17									#57
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Do we have the upperhand in this equation? No, we don't. Some risk needs to be taken. The safe route will ensure a safe win for GWT. We need to turn the tide more than a smidgeon.

I believe the latest figure by E_T was that if their FP went down, they would suffer an immediate loss of something in the ballpark of 30-40% of their overall effective GNP to corruption in an instant. They would also lose something at least over 20% or more of their production in an instant.

Any damage beyond that is gravy, since each individual turn of combat will yield very minimal results of overall economic devastation, but place our forces in ever greater danger of counter-attack.

We might indeed stay around if there is another CRITICAL TARGET or two we can reach in time to still extract our forces, but otherwise it would likely be unwise to keep our forces there while GWT's Ansar Warriors are moving to intercept us at 9 tiles per turn. We'll just lose the stack for absolutely no additional gain.

	08-05-2004 11:37									#58
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I think that we will be able to keep them busy for a few turns. I think taking out some of their bigger cities, i.e. with Aquaducts, would be in order. That way, even if they get their FP back up and running sooner than expected, they have lost a fair sum of populations.

E_T

	08-05-2004 11:55									#59
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Arnelos: Cutting down their production numbers is all good and fine; but if they have a means to get that back relatively quickly through a GL, then our operation is alot less succcessful. We need a way to help ensure that they cannot return to or near previous production/commerce levels they had prior to our attack on their FP. Fighting will happen with those GWT Ansar; the question is where? Mostly against APO? Mostly against CGN? Throw in CFC and what do we get? GWT will have a chance to generate a GL period. Regardless of whom they get one against, it's effects are the same. To use the possibility of them getting a GL while combating OUR troops as an argument against fighting them is bogus since THEY will fight someone. Heck, I'd even say they'd have less of a chance at getting one against us than anyone else because of our combined combat experiences. In other words, if there's a chance at limiting the possibility of a GL for another team then APO would be the one to make it happen. And NOT by running away!



What condition will CGN be in at the time of our arrival? It could be that they would be a force to still rekon with, thus GWT would not be able to get the whole of it's forces near their FP for many turns; regardless of 9 tiles or not. The minute we land they will have to decide to either split their forces or rekon that their FP is lost and try to salvage the remaining cities or send every unit away from their duties concerning CGN which would allow CGN to mount a counter and possibly even retake the choke points. Of course with a little help from CFC, ala Riders, we can make sure that GWT pays dearly for their support of Lucky and crew. If GWT choose to completely withdraw from their assault on CGN I think CGN with help from CFC and APO could salvage their position on that continent. Can you imagine CGN regaining some of their strength and with the help of APO and CFC making a beeline to Military Tradition?

	08-05-2004 12:32									#60
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I say that we try to also go and take out Parth, so that, even IF they get their FP rebuilt, they will have been badly hurt.

See the Logicitcal Moments for War Prep Map, the Possible CFC Strike and where at and the And a Possible Strike at Parth for some more Information about this.

E_T