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MarkG
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Grand Lord of Apolyton, Owner of all this land as far as the eye can see
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quote:
Originally posted by molly bloom
Look dearie- anyone who has to be restrained for fear of cutting his throat in despair at the death of his fellow warrior has a slightly closer relationship with the slain hero than just that of fellow volunteer fighters.
'....now that my dearest friend is dead, Patroklos, who was more to me than any other of my men, whom I loved as much as my own life.... I have lost Patroklos.
...I have no wish to live and linger in the world of men, unless, before all else, Hector is felled by my spear and dies, paying the price for slaughtering Menoetius's son.' |
so, "too close friends" for today's standards = they JUST HAVE to be gay... 
the thought that the greatest epic poet ever, Homer, would need to have some events/ emotions/ acts of, well... epic proportions to make his ancient audience... gasp, is at least absurd, right? 
the thought that for someone to be a hero he must do something extreme heroic thing(like avenge and die for his friend) is idiotic, correct? 
indeed they were gay.... 
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
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quote:
IF Achilles dies because of simply a co-warrior dies, then he is NOT a hero! He jeopardizes the war for a co-warrior? A lover, you can understand. There are certain emotions with that. But a friendship? No matter how good, it isn't as deep as a love relationship and thus this act becomes selfish instead of heroic. |
You've got Achilles right. He starts the Illiad jeopardizing the war for a bauble (actually a girl). He is not a hero in the sense 'generous'. He is a hero in the sense he can kill anyone else. He was so powerful that he couldn't even be killed by a man, but by Apollon (who either guided the arrow shot by Paris or shot it himself). As for Achilles being gay, please remember he had a son, Pyrrhos, actually named Neoptolemos.
Not including the gods is pretty silly imo. They play a role, showing that the powerful will put the less powerful at war against one another for their own reasons. You can't say the movie shows that the war was pointless if you don't have the gods in the story, because the war is the vengeance of the gods upon Troy, Paris and Aphrodite. And of course the fight between Aphrodite and Diomedes disappears, which is a pity since Diomedes is the only mortal to wound a god or goddess, and even that was a message: Gods don't wager war, they'll only get a small cut on the hand if they disobey, while non gods, even if they are sons of gods, will die and mustn't be protected. The dichotomy 'selfish rulers of the world'/'selfish warriors' is very strong in the Illiad, and losing it loses half of the story.
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkG
so, "too close friends" for today's standards = they JUST HAVE to be gay...
the thought that the greatest epic poet ever, Homer, would need to have some events/ emotions/ acts of, well... epic proportions to make his ancient audience... gasp, is at least absurd, right?
the thought that for someone to be a hero he must do something extreme heroic thing(like avenge and die for his friend) is idiotic, correct?
indeed they were gay.... |
I'm not judging by today's standards- and neither it seems were Aeschylus or Plato. Or indeed the other Greek and Roman writers, AND Shakespeare AND Cavafy, who all used the relationship between Achilles and Patroklos to symbolize the love between two warriors- something which also existed amongst other warrior castes in the Celts and the Samurai. Perhaps I'm misreading all those black figure vases replete with sexualized imagery of warriors, but somehow I don't think so.....
Quite obviously a modern 'gay' politicized identity didn't exist, but then Homer wasn't dealing with a guilt-ridden Judaeo-Christianized culture with big taboos on same sex relationships or the portrayal of naked male bodies or lesbian love poetry. The relationship between Achilles and Patroklos is no different than that which we know existed between the members of the Sacred Band of Thebes and the historical partnership of Aristogeiton and Harmodius- and later, Alexander and his comrade in arms and bed, Hephaestion.
Imagine, all this denial of an erotic relationship between Achilles and Patroklos, in anachronistic subservience to a Christian morality. If anyone is judging by inaccurate standards, it's you.
As for Achilles having a son- well so did Zeus, but it didn't stop him lusting after Ganymede, and Herakles bedded men as well as women.
In real life of course, many gay men and lesbians have children- it doesn't preclude them from being gay- anyone with working equipment can spawn progeny after all.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:35
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I didn't say Achilles wasn't gay, I said he was bisexual in the previous post... The term 'gay' being used as 'homosexual' would then be wrong because he was probably bi, that is both homo and hetero.
Anyway, whether a fabulous character was gay or not is probably moot, son't you think?
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15-05-2004 10:52
i was actually arguing that Homer didnt have any secret homosexual meaning in the Achilles/Patroclos friendship. 
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