12-05-2004 23:32									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Good going John. He's probably the Rep. from a safe seat they had vote yay.

	12-05-2004 23:32									#62
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yes, but like you said, then it becomes known that it was Bush's Republicans which ultimately prevented extending unemployment.

Well, that's what they did anyway and look at how this thread (and the news stories) are turning out.

	12-05-2004 23:35									#63
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

And that's how they're playing it:

quote: Senate rejects jobless benefits extension On campaign trail, Kerry misses vote Wednesday, May 12, 2004 Posted: 9:49 AM EDT (1349 GMT) WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Senate rejected by one vote Tuesday a proposal to extend unemployment benefits to jobless Americans, and the vote quickly became an issue in the presidential campaign. Sen. John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic nominee, was the only senator to miss the vote. He was campaigning in Kentucky, and Republicans seized on his absence. In a statement, President Bush's re-election campaign said Kerry was "too busy playing politics" to do his job. But Democrats shot back that Republicans in the Senate -- most of whom opposed the measure -- engineered Tuesday's vote to embarrass Kerry, who has publicly supported the measure to extend unemployment insurance for an additional 13 weeks for those who have already exhausted their benefits. "John Kerry has fought again and again to extend unemployment benefits for workers left behind in the Bush economy," said Kerry campaign spokesman David Wade. "The reason we haven't succeeded is because George Bush opposes extending unemployment insurance, and so do his allies." The proposal to extend benefits was offered by Democrats as an amendment to a corporate tax bill. Senators voted 59-40 in favor of the measure -- but that was one vote short of the 60 needed to win the procedural vote under Senate rules. "Last month, John Kerry was pushing for the extension of unemployment benefits. Today, he had the chance to actually vote on that question but was too busy playing politics when he would have made the difference in the Senate," said Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt. "John Kerry's rhetoric on the campaign trail is hiding a long list of missed votes and empty promises on the issues he claims are priorities." But a spokesman for Senate Minority Leader Tom Daschle, D-South Dakota, charged that Republicans engineered the vote to embarrass Kerry, suggesting that if he had been on hand Tuesday to vote for it, Republicans would have persuaded one of the 11 GOP senators who voted for the measure to change sides, killing it anyway. Eleven Republicans sided with the Democrats in favor of the measure; one Democrat, Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, sided with most of the Republicans who opposed it. The 11 Senate Republicans who supported the benefits extension were John McCain of Arizona; Christopher Bond and Jim Talent of Missouri; Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island; Susan Collins and Olympia Snowe of Maine; Mike DeWine and George Voinovich of Ohio; Gordon Smith of Oregon; Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania and Elizabeth Dole of North Carolina.

	12-05-2004 23:36									#64
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm glad I made my arguments before I read that article. Perhaps I'm in the wrong business.

Oh, yeah: link.

	12-05-2004 23:37									#65
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well it's a small news story... it doesn't play prominently on CNN.com at all (you have to dig around for it). So, small news story, not a big deal.

	12-05-2004 23:38									#66
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't doubt this was engineered, as the article mentions... but Kerry is a dumbass for allowing the Repukes to play him like this.

I've said it before... Kerry was the wrong choice. It's still a long ways until November, but he's not on pace for a victory.

	12-05-2004 23:38									#67
	Suffering from ads?

Imran: Took me two clicks. One to the Politics section, the next to the article itself.

	12-05-2004 23:38									#68
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Tiamat .well here goes.

Just a general high five, Tia. What DF fails to understand is that employers and employees both want unemployment insurance. If he opposes this type of insurance, why doesn't he oppose all types of insurance?

	12-05-2004 23:39									#69
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Took me two clicks. One to the Politics section, the next to the article itself

Exactly. How many people dig around the bottom headline part of CNN.com to click on 'Politics' in the first place?

	12-05-2004 23:43									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Yes, but you and me are dorks... admit it .

	12-05-2004 23:49									#72
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: such statements clash violently with Kerry’s subsequent declaration to The Wall Street Journal: “I’m not a protectionist. I never have been. I’m not about to be.” But they don't.... there is NO clash! Being a free trader doesn't mean that you don't want manufacturing jobs in Detroit! It simply means you want those manufacturing jobs in the US to be more efficient to compete in the global market place. Thereby the consumers benefit and manufacturing workers benefit. Wanting jobs to stay in America doesn't mean you can't be a free trader .

If you say so:

"He also pledged “to keep car manufacturing jobs in the country” if elected."

sounds kinda like protectionism to me.

	12-05-2004 23:50									#73
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Sava The bill passed 59-40... his vote was irrelevant. Perhaps if his vote was the sole deciding vote, then I could see where this would be a legitimate issue. His vote wasn't... so it's not.

it needed 60 to pass because it exceeded last years budget

	12-05-2004 23:50									#74
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sava it was probably a Senate vote that was part of a garbage bill... if you looked hard enough, you could find Senator * voted to eat babies! diplomat and his ilk can't find any legitimate issues to talk about, so they praddle on about dubious Senate votes.

unemployment benefits are a legitimate issue! If you were unemployed I doubt you would call "dubious" a senate vote to give you money that you badly need to live on.

So, you guys want to bash Bush for losing jobs and claim you can do better, but when it comes time to actually help unemployed survive, you call it "dubious". typical.

	12-05-2004 23:51									#75
	Support Apolyton

quote: If you say so:

Yeah, I do say so .

You can be for free trade and yet wish that American companies become the most productive and efficient companies in the world and stay in the US. They are not inconsistent. IN FACT, that is what free trade is supposed to do for your economy, make it super-efficient.

quote: "He also pledged “to keep car manufacturing jobs in the country” if elected." sounds kinda like protectionism to me.

He's a politician, they have to sound like they back things they don't really support.

	12-05-2004 23:53									#76
	Tired of ads?

by weeding out the stuff you don't do, his statement was one of support for protectionism(i editted the above post)

"He also pledged “to keep car manufacturing jobs in the country” if elected."

The two positions do seem to clash. We can't build cars as well as the Japanese,etc we should drop the quotas and let them destroy that industry according to statement #2, statement #1 conflicts with that.

	12-05-2004 23:56									#77
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Furthermore, he singles out one industry for protectionism, as per the article "a free trader believes that the overall benefit surpasses the effect on one industry".

Do you believe that jobs that we do "inefficiently" should stay here?

	12-05-2004 23:58									#78
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

and finally I want to appologize for the "if you say so" I didn't mean the part about jobs, I mean about the flip-flop.

	13-05-2004 00:01									#79
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: "He also pledged “to keep car manufacturing jobs in the country” if elected."

But did he say HOW! THAT is the important thing. Anyone can say they pledge to keep X jobs in the country, but unless they tell you a plan how to do it, then you can't say it is protectionist. Perhaps he is saying he wants to keep those jobs in the country by given those employer tax breaks if they don't move, which isn't anti-free trade.

quote: Do you believe that jobs that we do "inefficiently" should stay here?

Personally? No... but I'll never run for office (if I do and I said that I'd be dead in the water )

	13-05-2004 00:03									#80
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kerry doesn't really have an economic plan.

	13-05-2004 00:03									#81
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

trust me, whatever he does to keep jobs here will be ruled "against the spirit of free trade" by china,india,etc via the wto :P

	13-05-2004 00:03									#82
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Kerry doesn't really have an economic plan.

He actually has 8 or 9 different contradictory plans.

	13-05-2004 00:05									#83
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Whoha He actually has 8 or 9 different contradictory plans.

Oh yeah.. I was mistakened.... he changes between them when convenient.

	13-05-2004 00:07									#84
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Just a general high five, Tia. What DF fails to understand is that employers and employees both want unemployment insurance. If he opposes this type of insurance, why doesn't he oppose all types of insurance?

I'm sure if you give him a minute he will think of some reason to oppose insurance. It's not like it's a welfare check. You work, you pay into it, you use it if you need.

	13-05-2004 00:09									#85
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: trust me, whatever he does to keep jobs here will be ruled "against the spirit of free trade" by china,india,etc via the wto :P

Yeah, yeah, yeah... tax cuts to business that stay won't be too highly protested, because other countries do similar things (subsidies, etc). It isn't impacting free trade, since there wouldn't be any raising of tariffs or the free flow of goods.

	13-05-2004 00:09									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Just look in the article, he blames republicans naturally. He claims that his vote would have been meaningless because republicans were going to make the bill fail no matter what. Note that this is clearly not true, because if Kerry had voted for it, it would have gotten the 60 votes needed to pass.

Well, since the vote was 59-40, obviously some Republicans voted for it. The Republicans have the majority, and let's assume at random they have a bit of discipline in the party. They can let a few Republicans (in states with high unemployment, or up for reelection) vote for the bill, without actually passing it. That gives those Republicans the ability to play it both ways - vote for something they know will lose, and work the audiences.

Kerry either (a) continues to campaign, and the vote is managed so that he can be "blamed" for a majority orchestrated one-vote defeat, or (b) Kerry pulls off the campaign, goes back to Washington, votes, and all it takes is one more Republican to vote "No" to make it 59-41.

Does anyone really think party line votes happen at random, because everyone within a particular party thinks the same, no matter? And that the leadership of the two parties don't do anything?

A 59-40 vote when 60 are needed and one party controls a majority of the Senate, but not 59 members (and the majority of the controlling party are on the "losing" side) is just a bit too fishy not to smell from a long ways away.

Yep, politics as usual, but Kerry is far from the only one playing.

	13-05-2004 00:19									#87
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Well, since the vote was 59-40, obviously some Republicans voted for it. The Republicans have the majority, and let's assume at random they have a bit of discipline in the party. They can let a few Republicans (in states with high unemployment, or up for reelection) vote for the bill, without actually passing it. That gives those Republicans the ability to play it both ways - vote for something they know will lose, and work the audiences. Kerry either (a) continues to campaign, and the vote is managed so that he can be "blamed" for a majority orchestrated one-vote defeat, or (b) Kerry pulls off the campaign, goes back to Washington, votes, and all it takes is one more Republican to vote "No" to make it 59-41. Does anyone really think party line votes happen at random, because everyone within a particular party thinks the same, no matter? And that the leadership of the two parties don't do anything? A 59-40 vote when 60 are needed and one party controls a majority of the Senate, but not 59 members (and the majority of the controlling party are on the "losing" side) is just a bit too fishy not to smell from a long ways away. Yep, politics as usual, but Kerry is far from the only one playing.

You really think that the republicans engineered the vote to be one vote shy of 60 deliberately? All you would need is to have one republican change his mind and vote for it, and this "scheme" would fail.

Regardless, Kerry would have been better off politically to vote for it, so as to at least be able to tout that he voted even if the bill did not pass, than to lament that unemployed are not getting their benefits when he did not even bother to vote at all.

	13-05-2004 00:20									#88
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My main problem with unemployment is not the existence of the program - well, it is, but that's a separate issue. My main issue is that the state transfers the cost, in many cases, to the former employer. Now, if the state wants to hand money out, fine - I disagree, obviously, but I'm being taxed either way. But that's the state's problem, not the business's problem. If a business fires someone for, for example, refusing to work on Sunday because of religious beliefs, the State cannot refuse to pay out unemployment (Supreme Court decision, can't recall case citation). If the State pays unemployment, then most likely the employer will pay as well. But wait a minute. If it didn't fit the employer's business needs to employ a person who couldn't work on Sunday, why should they have to pay to fire that person? Doesn't quite seem fair that business needs can be subordinated to personal religious beliefs, now does it? In any case, I have a final exam to take so I've gotta run, but I'd be (marginally) satisfied if employers were not forced to pay out unemployment compensation. If the state wants to, that's the states business, but don't raise taxes or get money from the employer in order to do so.

Having been an employer, and being in business for a while, let me impart a little info. A dollar spent is a dollar spent, who gives a **** where? Assume that you do all the same things, as far as selling product and controlling costs, etc., whether that dollar is postage, wages, or unemployment, it's still a dollar of expense. The only relevance is whether it's a necessary expense, and whether you get a net benefit from it.

Unemployment insurance is cheap, unless you turn over employees all the time. The worst it can cost in most states is 6.2% of gross wages, and that's if you can everyone who ever works for you before they earn $7,000 a year, and you do that for a few years. For most employers with normal salary range employees, it's a fraction of a percent of annual wage costs.

The downside, if you didn't have it, would be that you'd have to pay more in wages, (especially if you have high turnover or seasonal employment) because employees in general would be more concerned with getting more money out of you when they were working, rather than rationalizing that they have unemployment to fall back on. Same thing when things get tough for a company - if employees start thinking they'll be out in the cold, they'll move to other jobs quicker than they would otherwise. Unemployment insurance helps stabilize the job market, and that benefits both employers and employees.

	13-05-2004 00:24									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo His wife is even more compassionate... http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/pol...tner=ALTAVISTA1 "LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- Teresa Heinz Kerry, responding to repeated calls that she disclose information about her private fortune, said Tuesday she earned more than $5 million last year and has paid about $750,000 toward income taxes, according to her husband's presidential campaign."

She paid 15%. My family earns less than a tenth of what she does, and we paid ~40%.

	13-05-2004 00:30									#90
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Jaguar She paid 15%. My family earns less than a tenth of what she does, and we paid ~40%.

You need better accountants. If you're making a little under 500,000 a year (10%), don't ***** about your taxes. You're like that fat guy *****ing that his seven course meal was a course short.