15-05-2004 10:29									#61
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Why do people only living outside of China believe this? I've asked many Chinese people here if they think that China will eventually return to communism. Their first answer is usually yes. Then I ask, "Do you really believe that?" Which they reply, "No, not really, but we're supposed to." Seems like the propaganda machine is more effective outside of China than inside.

Last time I checked, I lived in China.

The beliefs of the average person in China is not reflective of what government officials believe for the simple reason that government officials are far more educated then the average person. This is a country where the average income is still about US$1 a day. The vast majority of the 1 billion Chinese have only basic schooling. They cannot be compared to the ruling elite.

People outside of China tend to think that China is embracing no-holds capitalism. It's not. For the past 25 years the Chinese economy has undergone a controlled move to limited free market and it will continue to remain that way.

People laugh at the idea of a long-term goals, but look at the Chinese government's policies and you will see that this is the case.

Back around 1980, the Chinese communists realised that their economic system wasn't producing strong enough results. Why? Because they tried to skip the capitalist stage of economic development.

Marx argued that workers would eventually say why do we need capitalists when we can do the work ourselves. But that only can occur when the workers have the expertise to run a business. Obviously, the peasants didn't have that knowledge.

The only way to develop that worker knowledge is to allow capitalism to develop. The Chinese government has done that, but on a carefully controlled level.

When education levels and working knowledge have reached a critical mass, communism can then be achieved.

	15-05-2004 10:48									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Last time I checked, I lived in China.

Well, now you know better

	15-05-2004 10:55									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The same tune has been sung for quite a while now (since Marx wrote about it, in fact). The thing is, "capitalist" societies have adapted, making compromises with socialism that have brought a measure of stability to the system. So the system Marx wrote about has evolved some. Given that, it is certainly reasonable to ask whether his analysis is still applicable (and that's even assuming it was applicable in the first place, which we capitalist pig dogs do not concede ). -Arrian

Fortunately for communists, capitalists have forgotten why those compromises were made and want to unmake them with all their heart.

Eh. I like the balance.

	15-05-2004 12:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Well, now that its not a threat anymore, Communism is becoming more socially acceptable.

So are zits.

	15-05-2004 12:44									#65
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Communism + some capitalism = better development
Capitalism + some communism = more stable society

The two are actually not that far apart.

	15-05-2004 12:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Communism + some capitalism = better development Capitalism + some communism = more stable society The two are actually not that far apart.

Neither were the Protestant and Catholic brands of Christianity, but the Thirty Year War was fought nevertheless.

	15-05-2004 13:08									#67
	Re: Re: Being a Communist Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not so bad. It may be that we will ultimately fail to change the world, in which case I feel sorry for not only our species, but the others as well. The flip side is, our movement has had ebbs and flows. We're in an ebb right now. Doesn't mean we won't flow again. In 1912, there were 50 members of the Bolshevik organization. Five years later they overthrew the Russian government. In 1952, Castro led an attack on a Cuban police station and was thrown in prison. Seven years later he marched into Havana. In 1927, Mao was being led off to face a firing squad with most of the rest of the leaders of the Communist Party of China. Twenty years later he took over China. Those kind of stories can help us to "keep the faith" inspite of overwhelming odds.

Well, the lesson from that is clear.

If you want to remove the competition, don't pussyfoot around.

Just kill them.

	15-05-2004 13:22									#68
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Interesting thing is that the existing governments in all three cases did actively kill communists. Problem was, much like today in the Mid East with fundamentalists, more get created as a result.

	15-05-2004 13:26									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Last time I checked, I lived in China.

I knew I'd have to add mainland China later. You do realize that Hong Kong and mainland China are very different, don't you?

quote: The beliefs of the average person in China is not reflective of what government officials believe for the simple reason that government officials are far more educated then the average person. This is a country where the average income is still about US$1 a day. The vast majority of the 1 billion Chinese have only basic schooling. They cannot be compared to the ruling elite.

Of course! All intellectuals enter politics. Just as every graduate of the best schools in China gets a seat on the ruling counsel. The rest of the Chinese are just ignorant cows waiting for slaughter.

Also, the Chinese government will do what it thinks is best for the party, meaning whatever will keep it in power. If communism doesn't fit this goal, then it won't happen.

quote: People outside of China tend to think that China is embracing no-holds capitalism. It's not. For the past 25 years the Chinese economy has undergone a controlled move to limited free market and it will continue to remain that way. People laugh at the idea of a long-term goals, but look at the Chinese government's policies and you will see that this is the case.

Have you looked at the policies? Nearly every year China is releasing more to the private sector. Just recently it became possible for private companies to own land.

quote: Back around 1980, the Chinese communists realised that their economic system wasn't producing strong enough results. Why? Because they tried to skip the capitalist stage of economic development. Marx argued that workers would eventually say why do we need capitalists when we can do the work ourselves. But that only can occur when the workers have the expertise to run a business. Obviously, the peasants didn't have that knowledge. The only way to develop that worker knowledge is to allow capitalism to develop. The Chinese government has done that, but on a carefully controlled level. When education levels and working knowledge have reached a critical mass, communism can then be achieved.

No, back in 78, Deng Xiaoping witnessed first hand the disaster that communism had brought to his country and sought a way to remedy it. He realized that communism wasn't appropriate for China. One aspect is that the Chinese actually lack a sense of community with one another. This is usually the biggest complaint that Chinese people have about themselves. Most Chinese don't know the names of their neighbors and rarely socialize with strangers. There isn't really a sense of kinship among Chinese. The only exception, as one of my students pointed out, is when China as a whole is threatened. Then the Chinese will work together to fight their enemy, such as the Japanese. Communism requires this sense community. Communism is people working together to build better lives for everyone. This is not China in any aspect. However, capitalism fits well with the Chinese mindset, which is one reason why it blossomed so quickly here. It's also why the government has been slow to remove restrictions. Unbridled capitalism would tear this country apart.

Anyway, this comes back to my main point. The government will work to improve China because it is its own best interest. Communism has been cruel to China, and I doubt that any leader will put himself on the line to try that experiment again.

	15-05-2004 13:34									#70
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Communism does have a steep learning curve. Naturally, the first generation post collectivization for any country is difficult. However, afterwards, when you have people who have grown up under the system, they are more accepting of it. Case in point is Russia, where the Communist Party is still a major, though no longer the only, political party.

	15-05-2004 13:35									#71
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quote: Communism will be the choice of the future.

Christians believe in the Coming of Christ; Communists believe in the Coming of Communism.
I see no difference between the two.

	15-05-2004 13:41									#72
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I believe in communism so much that it doesn't need me to advance. Nothing can stop communism, and anything I do to try to hurt it will have no effect, thus making me free to what I please. That, my friend, is the power of communism.

	15-05-2004 13:56									#73
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Christianity never industrialized any nation. Communism at least has some nice side effects.

	15-05-2004 13:59									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi One aspect is that the Chinese actually lack a sense of community with one another. This is usually the biggest complaint that Chinese people have about themselves. Most Chinese don't know the names of their neighbors and rarely socialize with strangers. There isn't really a sense of kinship among Chinese.

If you really believe that then there is not much point talking to you about China and Chinese people.

	15-05-2004 14:19									#75
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The question I have is why do people support the existing capitalistic system in the west that is built and maintained for the corporate elite and hereditary rich.

Look at the Americans. They'll have a choice between a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich and a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich.

If you're not a millionaire, why support the Republicans or the Democrats.

Even if the American people elected a president that created policies that benefited the majority, those policies would be blocked by the senate which is composed of the super-rich. The average cost of winning a senate position is US$7 million, compared to $700,000 for a House of Representatives seat.

Who's got the money to finance these political campaigns - the rich.

The so-called free market is really an economic system designed to benefit mega-corporations. They're the ones getting the lion share of government funding.

Meanwhile, small and medium-sized businesses are the ones creating the majority of new jobs.

Information is becoming more and more controlled by mega-corporations like Time-Warner who control smaller corporations down the line.

The workers (blue collar, white collar, whatever) create the profits, but the corporate elite are the ones taking home multi-million dollar salaries, even when they are running a corporation into the ground.

The corporate elite ship good jobs to low-income countries, which means they can get richer while the rest of us get poorer.

Why support this? Why not demand a government that looks after the interests of the majority instead of the pampered rich?

	15-05-2004 14:25									#76
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Well, much like in the case of Communism, Capitalism has lots of nice side effects. In this case it's a proliferation of consumer products and entertainment.

Fundamentalism keeps power at the local level. But that's about it all it does.

	15-05-2004 14:25									#77
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I got a raise today!!!

	15-05-2004 15:07									#78
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I got a raise today!!!

	15-05-2004 19:56									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If you really believe that then there is not much point talking to you about China and Chinese people.

Are you UR? This is one of his escape techniques.

I personally didn't know anything about this until Chinese people pointed it out. Talk to them about it. It's quite noticeable. You know, there is no system of charity here. Just last week, I saw a restaurant manager literally throw a poorer man's bicycle into the mud to make room for a car of a customer. In fact, he asked the driver if he was a customer before doing it. You don't live in mainland China. I'm not saying that the Chinese are bad people. They just have a different culture with different values developed from a different history. I am saying that Chinese culture isn't suited to communism. Even Mao recognized that.

This is not the first time you've let your emotions and bias cloud your judgement, Tingkai. Perhaps a better approach for you is to simply walk away and cool off.

	15-05-2004 20:05									#80
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither But today it seems it is simply an almost forgotten creed that is aped with imperfection by modern day rebels with very few clues.

Likewise with liberals and conservatives it would seem. And your leader even looks like a monkey! Sorry but that arrogant statement required some sort of silly response, don't you think?

	15-05-2004 20:07									#81
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No.

	15-05-2004 21:32									#82
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I got a raise today!!!

I didn't and I've been asking for one for over two months!

	15-05-2004 21:33									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi I am saying that Chinese culture isn't suited to communism. Even Mao recognized that.

Which is why he started the Cultural Revolution. Granted, a lot of bad things happened during it, but it did put an end to the patriarchal system that had locked the country into stagnation for the last few hundred years.

	15-05-2004 21:39									#84
	Re: Re: Re: Being a Communist Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Your predecessors have already changed the world.

Yes they did, and the capitalist engaged in a brutal, no-holds, barred, kicking, biting, nail-gouging fight to oppose them. So instead of being able to build a better society, they had to build a society oriented around defending themselves. A society like that has no future.

quote: However the best parts of your message have been subsumed by other systems (socialism and capitalist, liberal democracies).

Only because we forced it upon you. Without the threat of red revolution, without communists fighting in the factories and streets of the various industrialized countries, there would be no welfare, no minimum wage, no socialized medicine. Everything that makes life in the West not life in in a Third World ****-hole sweatshop is due to us.

quote: What is left to distinguish yours from other offerings available is a future devoid of choice for individuals on how to organise their affairs.

The capitalists are on the offensive, taking back the promises of the social welfare state. In Canada, the capitalists are sabotaging the health care system, so that you won't want to use it anymore and will turn to private alternatives. In France, they want to expand the work week. In Germany, they want to trim their vacations. Without us fighting to hold on, you won't get to keep them. Sure, you say you'd never let it happen, but after a few decades of Rupert Mudoch telling you otherwise and the government refusing to fund your services, you'll agree to let it happen. Even if you just want a more humane capitalism, you still need us.

	15-05-2004 22:01									#85
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Che is right.

	15-05-2004 23:34									#86
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quote: Look at the Americans. They'll have a choice between a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich and a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich. If you're not a millionaire, why support the Republicans or the Democrats.

You know it is easy to focus on one Presidential election and say, OH MY GOD, IT'S ALL RICH YALE PEOPLE! What about Clinton? Dole? Reagan? Carter? Humphrey? Nixon? Ford? None of them grew up rich! Simply because the last two US elections have had two rich Ivy League candidates doesn't mean that is what the leadership of both parties are.... Hell, let's look at the Congressional leadership! Delay? Pelosi? Gephart (when he was leader)? Hastert? There were ordinary schmoes!

So sorry, that analysis of the parties doesn't hold up.

	16-05-2004 00:46									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What about Clinton? Dole? Reagan? Carter? Humphrey? Nixon? Ford? None of them grew up rich!

They were all millionaires by the time they ran.

	16-05-2004 01:43									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The question I have is why do people support the existing capitalistic system in the west that is built and maintained for the corporate elite and hereditary rich. Look at the Americans. They'll have a choice between a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich and a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich. If you're not a millionaire, why support the Republicans or the Democrats. Even if the American people elected a president that created policies that benefited the majority, those policies would be blocked by the senate which is composed of the super-rich. The average cost of winning a senate position is US$7 million, compared to $700,000 for a House of Representatives seat. Who's got the money to finance these political campaigns - the rich. The so-called free market is really an economic system designed to benefit mega-corporations. They're the ones getting the lion share of government funding. Meanwhile, small and medium-sized businesses are the ones creating the majority of new jobs. Information is becoming more and more controlled by mega-corporations like Time-Warner who control smaller corporations down the line. The workers (blue collar, white collar, whatever) create the profits, but the corporate elite are the ones taking home multi-million dollar salaries, even when they are running a corporation into the ground. The corporate elite ship good jobs to low-income countries, which means they can get richer while the rest of us get poorer. Why support this? Why not demand a government that looks after the interests of the majority instead of the pampered rich?

Because wealth creation benefits everyone, I live a lot better life then my ancestors did for a reason.

	16-05-2004 02:08									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Look at the Americans. They'll have a choice between a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich and a guy born into a rich dynasty, educated in Yale, who politics support the rich. If you're not a millionaire, why support the Republicans or the Democrats. You know it is easy to focus on one Presidential election and say, OH MY GOD, IT'S ALL RICH YALE PEOPLE! What about Clinton? Dole? Reagan? Carter? Humphrey? Nixon? Ford? None of them grew up rich! Simply because the last two US elections have had two rich Ivy League candidates doesn't mean that is what the leadership of both parties are.... Hell, let's look at the Congressional leadership! Delay? Pelosi? Gephart (when he was leader)? Hastert? There were ordinary schmoes! So sorry, that analysis of the parties doesn't hold up.

Damn it -- I agree with Imran on something -- again.

	16-05-2004 02:28									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Because wealth creation benefits everyone, I live a lot better life then my ancestors did for a reason.

"Wealth creation" fosters social stratification. The "haves" will do whatever it takes to hoard their wealth and refuse to share it while the "have-nots" will try and fight for equality.

Social stratification may be good for some, but the underlying theme is "I'm better than you."