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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Your predecessors have already changed the world. |
Yes they did, and the capitalist engaged in a brutal, no-holds, barred, kicking, biting, nail-gouging fight to oppose them. So instead of being able to build a better society, they had to build a society oriented around defending themselves. A society like that has no future.
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However the best parts of your message have been subsumed by other systems (socialism and capitalist, liberal democracies). |
Only because we forced it upon you. Without the threat of red revolution, without communists fighting in the factories and streets of the various industrialized countries, there would be no welfare, no minimum wage, no socialized medicine. Everything that makes life in the West not life in in a Third World ****-hole sweatshop is due to us.
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What is left to distinguish yours from other offerings available is a future devoid of choice for individuals on how to organise their affairs. |
The capitalists are on the offensive, taking back the promises of the social welfare state. In Canada, the capitalists are sabotaging the health care system, so that you won't want to use it anymore and will turn to private alternatives. In France, they want to expand the work week. In Germany, they want to trim their vacations. Without us fighting to hold on, you won't get to keep them. Sure, you say you'd never let it happen, but after a few decades of Rupert Mudoch telling you otherwise and the government refusing to fund your services, you'll agree to let it happen. Even if you just want a more humane capitalism, you still need us. |
quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Che is right. |
Actually, he would be wrong on several major points.
First, after a few years the Reds were left to their own devices in the USSR. Che tends to like to throw up the bogey man of Capitalist-Imperialist intervention, but that was over by the early 20's. Thereafter, Stalin and the party were left alone to build a hell-on-Earth all on their lonesome.
Next he'll mention the Cold War, but maybe I could point out that that 'war' did not begin until the Soviets throttled the independence of the people of Eastern Europe when they changed liberation into conquest and occupation. Thus, after leaving well enough alone for 15 years before WW2 capitalist democracies were more than willing to continue to leave the reds alone... until it was the Soviets who made it clear what was at stake through their heavy handed reliance on the Red Army to force revolution on others.
Brutal and no-holds barred? Freekin' right! The educated, the middle classes, and many others who lived in the West would have received no mercy had the tides of change gone the other way. Crying about losing a struggle communists themselves began seems a bit... lame, to me.
On the topic of social change being driven home he is partially correct. However, he is dead wrong that no social progress was made before Marx breathed life into the socialist movement with his mythical tales of fantastic worlds. However, that is not really the point since I will grant that more was done quickly once the left established itself.
What is the point is that the best aspects of socialism are now adopted by non-communists from other parts of the left and their better ideas can be put into practice through the ballot box. Communism through revolution alone retains the distinction of seeking to extinguish liberty on the alter of equality.
It is then little wonder that the attraction of your cause is limited to a few malcontents and a greater number of rebellious youth. In short, communism today occupies a similar prospect for success as monarchists enjoy. Wake up! The day is done, the race has been run.
As far as French work weeks and German holidays are concerned, I will not comment on what I do not know. As far as Canadian healthcare is concerned though, he is full of beans. Canada spends more per person and gets less results than most other Western countries. We have a 100% public system for core services which is overbloated and inefficient. We are the only Western country to seek to prohibit a private system from enhancing a public one. I don't know about you, but I think it may be time that we take a lesson or two from those capitalist bastards of Western Europe, like France, The Netherlands, and Sweden.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
First, after a few years the Reds were left to their own devices in the USSR. Che tends to like to throw up the bogey man of Capitalist-Imperialist intervention, but that was over by the early 20's. Thereafter, Stalin and the party were left alone to build a hell-on-Earth all on their lonesome. |
Boogey-man? The imperialists helped start and feed a war that consumed nine million Soviet lives. Then they cut off the country for years until they realized it wasn't going away. In the mean time, countries like France sponsored espionage and terrorism in the USSR. There is a damned good reason the Soviet were paranoid.
quote:
Next he'll mention the Cold War, but maybe I could point out that that 'war' did not begin until the Soviets throttled the independence of the people of Eastern Europe when they changed liberation into conquest and occupation. |
You mean like when the Allies forced the Greeks to have a monarchy, and interfered in the elections in Italy to make sure the Communists wouldn't win? Both sides played that game.
In any event, since very few of us here are Stalin supporters, and in fact blame the West's activities for the rise of Stalin, you can't throw his crimes on us.
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Brutal and no-holds barred? Freekin' right! The educated, the middle classes, and many others who lived in the West would have received no mercy had the tides of change gone the other way. |
Because their experience with us before you tried to strangle our experiement was what? So many intellectuals and middle class people were slaughtered by the Paris Commune, that must be it. Oh, no wait, that didn't happen. It was the communards who slaughtered.
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However, he is dead wrong that no social progress was made before Marx breathed life into the socialist movement with his mythical tales of fantastic worlds. |
Oh yeah, where would we be without those corn laws? 
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What is the point is that the best aspects of socialism are now adopted by non-communists from other parts of the left and their better ideas can be put into practice through the ballot box. |
Not adopted, forced. The capitalists didn't grant those reforms willingly. They did so because they were forced to do so.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
First, after a few years the Reds were left to their own devices in the USSR. Che tends to like to throw up the bogey man of Capitalist-Imperialist intervention, but that was over by the early 20's. Thereafter, Stalin and the party were left alone to build a hell-on-Earth all on their lonesome. |
Boogey-man? The imperialists helped start and feed a war that consumed nine million Soviet lives. Then they cut off the country for years until they realized it wasn't going away. In the mean time, countries like France sponsored espionage and terrorism in the USSR. There is a damned good reason the Soviet were paranoid. |
Hmmm. I seem to recall the civil war starting when the reds forced revolution on the legitimate government of Russia. You don't want a war? Don't start a fight. Crying about the cost of a civil war your own side started is kind of pathetic.
French espionage and terrorism? What did they do, spike the wine?
Meanwhile, the the Soviets were able to buy machinery and other products from the West. Sounds like pretty effective isolation to me.
quote:
quote:
Next he'll mention the Cold War, but maybe I could point out that that 'war' did not begin until the Soviets throttled the independence of the people of Eastern Europe when they changed liberation into conquest and occupation. |
You mean like when the Allies forced the Greeks to have a monarchy, and interfered in the elections in Italy to make sure the Communists wouldn't win? Both sides played that game. |
You mean Italy and Greece became multi-party democracies? How awful those bastard capitalist-imperialists were! No wonder the people of Western Europe couldn't wait to overthrow the systems of government that were introduced, or reintroduced, by the Allies after 1945...
Oh wait, it was the otherway around. It was the people from behind the Iron Curtain who yearned to breath free, like in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Poland (and in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, the Ukraine, etc, etc, etc...).
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In any event, since very few of us here are Stalin supporters, and in fact blame the West's activities for the rise of Stalin, you can't throw his crimes on us. |
Hogswallop. Not many here are in favour of children working in coal mines, but you and yours waste no chance to pin that and similar tails on 'us'.
Stalin is a flea who lived on your dog. Deal with it.
quote:
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Brutal and no-holds barred? Freekin' right! The educated, the middle classes, and many others who lived in the West would have received no mercy had the tides of change gone the other way. |
Because their experience with us before you tried to strangle our experiement was what? So many intellectuals and middle class people were slaughtered by the Paris Commune, that must be it. Oh, no wait, that didn't happen. It was the communards who slaughtered. |
You seem to be attempting to argue that the war the reds made on their own citizens based on class, education, and sometimes race, can be justified based on the actions of foreign agents and governments.
Wow. I can think of a number of things I'd like to say about that, but I can't think of many that wouldn't be exceedingly inflammatory. I'll just have to pass this one by.
quote:
quote:
However, he is dead wrong that no social progress was made before Marx breathed life into the socialist movement with his mythical tales of fantastic worlds. |
Oh yeah, where would we be without those corn laws?
quote:
What is the point is that the best aspects of socialism are now adopted by non-communists from other parts of the left and their better ideas can be put into practice through the ballot box. |
Not adopted, forced. The capitalists didn't grant those reforms willingly. They did so because they were forced to do so. |
You seem to want to grab all of the credit for social progress in the last 100 or more years for communists. That is interesting. Delusional, but interesting.
It is as if the CCF (they became Canada's NDP) was inhabited by a rabid bunch of Trotskyites, or perhaps the Labour Party of the UK required prescience regarding the existence of the Soviet Union to cause them to form some 20 years prior to the threat becoming manifest.
No Che, socialism in the West would have done well and accomplished much on its own without the threat of the communists in Moscow, or those who have marginalised themselves in Western politics through adherence to a revolution that few here seem to want.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
That's total crap NYE and you know it. Canada historically spends a lot less per person as a proportion of GDP than the US and manages to provide health care to everyone. The systems which are better are invariably like Britain's which are more statist than Canada's single payer system. The problem with Canadian healthcare is that everyone wants someone else to pay for it, which means it gets underfunded.
Only the Americans and other third world countries don't seem to get the fact that a public health system is more efficient than a private one. |
Note, 'most other Western countries'. The last numbers I saw had Canada 3rd to the US and Germany on GDP per person for health [edit: among G7 nations; add in all the others and we're 5th]. For that we get 6 month waits for MRIs, and a system that was turned on its head by SARS.
And you can hardly get more statist than Canada's health care, where no one is allowed to pay for it but the government, and no one is allowed to deliver core services as a private, for-profit party.
You need to seriously check some facts before you get further into this, b'y.
Last edited by notyoueither on 17-05-2004 at 06:05
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
Hmmm. I seem to recall the civil war starting when the reds forced revolution on the legitimate government of Russia. |
You mean the unelected government which acted against the demands of the people of Russia? I'm sorry if popular elections for the Soviets don't make a government legitimate in your book, especially when the gave the peasants land and the people peace. But no, the civil war started when the Allies promised the Czechs their own country if they'd revolt (their armies were guarding the Transsiberian rail).
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French espionage and terrorism? What did they do, spike the wine? |
Try bombs, guns, etc.
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You mean Italy and Greece became multi-party democracies? |
Greece wasn't a democracy. It was a monarchy with a brutal military running things. Democracy in Italy was meaningless if you can't vote for the people you want.
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No Che, socialism in the West would have done well and accomplished much on its own without the threat of the communists in Moscow, or those who have marginalised themselves in Western politics through adherence to a revolution that few here seem to want. |
If you would have done well on your own without us, why didn't you? Why did it take the threat of revolution to force social reforms down your throats? Why did we have to organize movements to make life in the West bearable for the majority.
As for the rest of your post, your tone is insulting and demeaning, and if I deal with it, I'll engage in a similar tone, which I don't wish to do. Try discussing things without being an ******* about it.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
When were the Bolsheviks elected in a free election, Che? |
September of 1917, the Bolsheviks were elected to the Soviets, the government the people of Russia, not the Tsar, created, in a landslide.
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How did it come to them the moral authority to plunge the country into a civil war which, as you described, cost so many millions their lives? |
The Civil War was started by the aristocrats and capitalists, not us.
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Gave the people peace? |
They ended their part of WWI. They gave the people peace.
Yes, and rude.
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16-05-2004 09:16
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What makes you think that we live a pitiful existence? 
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