16-05-2004 03:10									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan "Wealth creation" fosters social stratification. The "haves" will do whatever it takes to hoard their wealth and refuse to share it while the "have-nots" will try and fight for equality. Social stratification may be good for some, but the underlying theme is "I'm better than you."

The gain is unequal, but everyone does gain. I'm not unhappy that there are people that are better off then me.

	16-05-2004 03:15									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan "Wealth creation" fosters social stratification. The "haves" will do whatever it takes to hoard their wealth and refuse to share it while the "have-nots" will try and fight for equality. Social stratification may be good for some, but the underlying theme is "I'm better than you."

But I am better than most people.

	16-05-2004 03:17									#93
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Modest as well?

	16-05-2004 03:18									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Modest as well?

As Moses described himself at the end of the book of Deurotemy;

"The most Humble man on Earth."

	16-05-2004 03:19									#95
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quote: They were all millionaires by the time they ran.

I guess we can point to them as an example of the social mobility in the US . But they weren't born rich. They didn't go to 'rich' universities.

quote: Damn it -- I agree with Imran on something -- again.

Ha ha ha haha! You agree with meeeee!

	16-05-2004 03:26									#96
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I don't think I'm 1/2 as great as I really am.

	16-05-2004 03:27									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Damn it -- I agree with Imran on something -- again. Ha ha ha haha! You agree with meeeee!

Or you could look at it as Imran agrees with MrFun...

	16-05-2004 03:41									#98
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No, because I said it first

Besides, I don't mind agreeing with MrFun. I'm a uniter, not a divider

	16-05-2004 03:43									#99
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He was thinking it long before you did...

	16-05-2004 04:32									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No, because I said it first Besides, I don't mind agreeing with MrFun. I'm a uniter, not a divider

Oh please don't give me that "I'm a uniter, not a divider" hogwash while you keep a Reagan avatar.

	16-05-2004 04:38									#101
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Reagan was a uniter

Why do you think all the Democrats voted for him .

	16-05-2004 04:39									#102
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It was one of the greatest tragedies in our nation's history -- when most people were voting for an idiot, and they didn't even realize it.



sigh

	16-05-2004 04:40									#103
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I'm sorry you are so upset that Clinton got elected

	16-05-2004 04:41									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'm sorry you are so upset that Clinton got elected

Oh, I have problems with Clinton too, but you know damn well I was referring to Reagan.

	16-05-2004 04:43									#105
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Suuuuuure you were.

	16-05-2004 04:44									#106
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grrrrrrrrr

	16-05-2004 04:59									#107
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Trolls you, Funsie!

	16-05-2004 05:23									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha Because wealth creation benefits everyone, I live a lot better life then my ancestors did for a reason.

Wealth creation does not benefit everyone. It benefits those who own, and it may benefit the rest of us, if we force them to share it with us. You live better than your ancestors because communists threatened the ruling class with total expropriation if they didn't give up things like social security, a minimum wage, unemployment insurance, an eight-hour day, etc. You might like to take a look at how well people live in countries without those social benefits.

There is one thing, however, that we do lack more than our ancestors, and that is leirsure time. Our ancestors had far more leisure time at the founding of our republican than their decendents do today (with the exception of the ancestors of slaves). We may have more junk, but we have less time to use it or to socialize.

	16-05-2004 05:33									#109
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Che, do you care to support that bit about leisure time? Because it sounds patently silly if you've ever been anywhere near a farm, or watched people cook and clean without modern conveniences.

	16-05-2004 05:37									#110
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Indeed nye... a LOT of communists say this and I don't think they have any idea of an agricultural life.

Furthermore, and leisure time would have been much more boring than ours today. All they would have had is talking to one another and reading (if they could read).

	16-05-2004 05:39									#111
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The Overworked American

And being a farmer doesn't involve constant work, even if you have animals. There is a reason why migrants farm workers are migrants. That's why it's called seasonal work.

	16-05-2004 05:40									#112
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quote: An important, hard-hitting, well-documented look at the overworking of America, this study finds that Americans now spend more hours working than at any time since WW II.

I never knew the founding of our republic was in WW2 .

	16-05-2004 05:43									#113
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You'd have to read the book, and not the reviews. He wanted a source, I cited.

	16-05-2004 05:44									#114
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Besides 'leisure time' is considered by Schorr (the author) to be time not working or DOING HOUSEHOLD CHORES! Let's compare to 1800 agg life, where if you weren't working, all you did were household chores.

Furthermore more hours working are done by choice, because people want nicer things. We still got a 40 hour work week. Hardly any industry mandates overtime work (in fact many will send you home if you hit 40 hours).

	16-05-2004 05:45									#115
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Arrian The same tune has been sung for quite a while now (since Marx wrote about it, in fact). The thing is, "capitalist" societies have adapted, making compromises with socialism that have brought a measure of stability to the system. So the system Marx wrote about has evolved some. Given that, it is certainly reasonable to ask whether his analysis is still applicable (and that's even assuming it was applicable in the first place, which we capitalist pig dogs do not concede ). -Arrian Fortunately for communists, capitalists have forgotten why those compromises were made and want to unmake them with all their heart. Eh. I like the balance.

You would be incorrect, in general. Most people in business and governmenty today have no intention of obliterating work place rules, social programs, or other advances our societies have made in the last 100 or more years.

However, what you might be observing is the recent realisation among those who govern (and more importantly by those who elect) that they do not possess a free money machine, and our governments must pay as we go. There is a large difference between a desire to return to Dickensian conditions on one hand and the refusal to bankrupt the next generations on the other.

	16-05-2004 05:47									#116
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I don't know about where you work, but where I work, I see lots of mandatory, unpaid overtime. I've seen it for years. It's also prevalent in manufacturing. Most people would perfer to be with family or friends, not putting in massive overtime.

	16-05-2004 05:53									#117
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Everywhere I've and my family has worked (only counting private employers), there was always a push to make sure you didn't work over 40 hours. The only places where that wasn't the case was in law firms, but I have, to date, never worked for one... and, of course, that is ONLY done to weed people out from being partners.

My cousin is working for an accounting firm right now and only works overtime so he can get that time and a half pay. Of course, he can set his own hours for that.

	16-05-2004 05:58									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The question I have is why do people support the existing capitalistic system in the west that is built and maintained for the corporate elite and hereditary rich. The so-called free market is really an economic system designed to benefit mega-corporations. They're the ones getting the lion share of government funding. Meanwhile, small and medium-sized businesses are the ones creating the majority of new jobs. Information is becoming more and more controlled by mega-corporations like Time-Warner who control smaller corporations down the line. The workers (blue collar, white collar, whatever) create the profits, but the corporate elite are the ones taking home multi-million dollar salaries, even when they are running a corporation into the ground. The corporate elite ship good jobs to low-income countries, which means they can get richer while the rest of us get poorer. Why support this? Why not demand a government that looks after the interests of the majority instead of the pampered rich?

There's this thing called a middle class. You should check into it.

	16-05-2004 06:17									#119
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't know about where you work, but where I work, I see lots of mandatory, unpaid overtime. I've seen it for years. It's also prevalent in manufacturing. Most people would perfer to be with family or friends, not putting in massive overtime.

Let's stick to industry and commerce, and leave farms alone, because they make a mockery of the claim re leisure time.

So, you (and the author) will maintain that the average time worked today is greater then it was when a 10 or 12 hour day was standard? And what about when a 6 day week was common? I am really curious about the numbers to justify this claim.

What about mandated holidays? Most people in the industrialised world get them. You do get them in the States, do you not?

As an employer in Canada in 2004, I am required by law to pay all employees for 20 days of work per year for which they do nothing, zero, zilch, nada. After a period of employment the amount of time goes up, but the 20 days are the minimum. That is roughly 7.5% of the year for paid holidays.

I guarantee you that no such thing occured in the Canada of 1870, and I doubt it happened in the US of 1780.

Oh, and for St. Leo and others who think all employers are neo-Dickensians, there have been no calls for changes to paid holiday time that I have ever heard of.

	16-05-2004 08:53									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Christians believe in the Coming of Christ; Communists believe in the Coming of Communism. I see no difference between the two.

Only in that both groups will be very disappointed.