25-07-2004 07:21									#61
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Well, there goes the neighborhood. We may be able to take out most of GCA before our army is destroyed.

	26-07-2004 17:07									#62
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Oh if only we had the friggin' Lighthouse...

	26-07-2004 23:48									#63
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So... err, are we going to play the save anytime soon or continue to sit on it?

	27-07-2004 00:33									#64
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A) I don't really see a clear consensus on what we're going to do with the fleet.

B) We don't have MoI orders. (E_T, can you start updating OPD and the rest on plans soon so they can start on orders?)

On the matter of the fleet, NW brought up the idea of landing with 3 knights.

Talk that is... err... miscaellaneous edited out.

quote: [14:11] [Nuclear_Winter] Did we end the turn without landing? [14:12] [MZ[Sick]] we haven't ended the turn yet :P [14:12] [Nuclear_Winter] ah [14:12] [Nuclear_Winter] since youīre a consul, I feel in the obligation to declare: [14:12] [Nuclear_Winter] PleaselandPleaselandPleaselandPleaselandPleaseland PleaselandPleaselandPleaselandPleaseland [14:12] [Kloreep] We can't land [14:14] [Kloreep] We can stick around a turn and see if we can land next turn, but the one tile we could land on tihs turn is blocked [14:15] [Nuclear_Winter] is the southern coast blocked too Kloreep? [14:16] [Kloreep] NW: ? [14:16] [Nuclear_Winter] Kloreep, waht aboot the southernmost caravel from green group... it could land itīs units if the coast is empty there and it moved the number of the beast move [14:17] [Kloreep] Three knights would be wiped out if they have enough Ansar around [14:17] [MZ[Sick]] yeah, we need to concentrate forces [14:18] [MZ[Sick]] ok, time for shower [14:18] [MZ[Sick]] maybe it'll make me feel better [14:18] [Aidun] if you move somewhere it should be with a considerable force [14:18] * MZ[Sick] is now known as MZ[Sick_Shower] [14:18] [Nuclear_Winter] Hmm, if they have no ansars close by we could use the 3 knights to clear a shoreline [14:18] [MZ[Sick_Shower]] they probably DO have ansar close :P [14:18] [Nuclear_Winter] and hadnīt we thought they are not within ansar range? [14:19] [Nuclear_Winter] and if we wait one more turn theyīll close the shoreline and itīs Gotterdämerung for apolyton [14:19] [Kloreep] [14:18] [Nuclear_Winter] and hadnīt we thought they are not within ansar range? [14:19] [Kloreep] I imagine at least some are now [14:19] [Aidun] I still support Kloreeps original porposal if that is still up [14:20] [Nuclear_Winter] (Iīm just throwing some ideas, to try to help, donīt take me for an insitent crazy fella) [14:20] [MZ[Sick_Shower]] NW, a lot of this is based on the assumption that we actually DID catch GWT off guard and dnot have many units around to block the shore before the ansar come [14:20] [Aidun] NW, you are a strategist and a well respected one. [14:21] [Nuclear_Winter] heh, not much of a stretegist in fact but still [14:21] [MZ[Sick_Shower]] brazilians are t3h 5u][0rZ 4t 57r4736y!11!!! [14:22] [Nuclear_Winter] MZ , and that assumption only enforces the need to get anything to land before they can rush build more **** to close all the shores [14:22] [Nuclear_Winter] anyway, we could land only 1 or 2 knights... [14:23] [Nuclear_Winter] I dunno about the diplomatic front, so I sunno about the chances of saying it is a dummy fleet and them buying it, tho [14:23] [Kloreep] If we land, it should be as much as possible, I think [14:23] [Aidun] 9Kloreep, what is your latest plan? [14:23] [Kloreep] Aidun: I still think we should stick around for a turn like I suggested here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...792#post3167792 [14:24] [Nuclear_Winter] Kloreep, if we landed those 3 knights it would be only to clean a beachhead in the future for our troops to land en-masse next turn [14:24] [Aidun] AH very well, I support that [14:25] [Nuclear_Winter] Reading Kloreepīs plan [14:25] [Kloreep] I can see your point [14:25] [Kloreep] Assuming they don't have the forces in range to take out the stack it could work [14:26] [Nuclear_Winter] I think thereīs a chance they donīt [14:26] [Kloreep] In the case where they only have 4 or 5 Ansar, even their destruction could serve some purpose... [14:26] [MZ[Sick_Shower]] even if they do, they would need A LOT OF ANSAR [14:26] [Aidun] NW you are right, but what if they do [14:26] [Nuclear_Winter] and if the troops die, 1- they will be the ones declaring war [14:26] [Kloreep] Think about it... [14:26] [Nuclear_Winter] 2-Itīs not like we lost the whole invasion fleet [14:26] [Kloreep] If they only have 4 or 5 Ansar in range, that's enough to cover the rest of the tiles [14:27] [Kloreep] But if three or four or five of the Ansar are forced to divert to take out our knights, one of the tiles in the north might be opened for the rest of the fleet [14:27] [Nuclear_Winter] Anyway, if these knights die, theyīll be martyrs to the WW hit sie germans will take [14:27] [Aidun] I beging to see the benefits of your plan NW [14:27] [Kloreep] If on the other hand they have no Ansar in range, nothing lost [14:27] [Aidun] exactly Kloreep [14:27] [Kloreep] However, the bad scenario is when they have 10 or more [14:27] [Nuclear_Winter] We will probably bring many of these things to their mind when we do land [14:28] [Kloreep] In that case, we lose 3 knights and still can't land [14:28] [Aidun] Then, Kloreep, we gat to know that they have 10+ [14:28] [Nuclear_Winter] if they already have 10 ansars in range, we can say goodbye to landing [14:28] [Kloreep] [14:28] [Nuclear_Winter] if they already have 10 ansars in range, we can say goodbye to landing [14:28] [Kloreep] Exactly [14:28] [Nuclear_Winter] and we cause them some WW [14:28] [Aidun] and we can cancel the rest of the landing [14:28] [Kloreep] We'd be losing three knights we wouldn't need ot [14:28] [Kloreep] Also, I don't think they'd take a WW hit if they attacked us on their own land [14:29] [MZ[Sick_Shower]] [Aidun] and we can cancel the rest of the landing [14:29] [Aidun] but neither do we [14:29] [MZ[Sick_Shower]] and then we can do the fetal postition thing [14:29] [Aidun] [14:29] [Aidun] You [14:29] [Nuclear_Winter] And thereīs the possibility they already closed the whole coast. [14:29] [Kloreep] NW: We know they aren't covering those two inner tiles by Ruhrpott [14:29] [Nuclear_Winter] then , OTOH, we have CONSISTENT PROOF they are liars and cheaters [14:30] [Kloreep] The four tiles around the adjacent cities might be open also [14:30] [Kloreep] I'm going to post a log of this if no one minds [14:30] [Nuclear_Winter] and, since they have spears and a horse on the sea wall, they may be without none inside the cities [14:30] [Aidun] of course not [14:31] [Aidun] just like I mentioned in my post [14:31] [Nuclear_Winter] And hell, if we sucessfully make landfall south of Elfensomething, and the city is empty or with only a shitty spear... [14:32] [Nuclear_Winter] [14:32] [Aidun] By using those three knights as expeditionary force, we can get A LOT more info about them [14:35] [Aidun] It should aslo be three knights, that is a balance number: they have to use quite some troops to take the knights out, so that can give an indication to us about how many troops they have.

I'm not sure we want to throw 3 knights after the now-impossible LZ if they have a decent amount of Ansar around, but it is a good idea and could make a difference if they only have 5 or so Ansar in the area.

	27-07-2004 00:41									#65
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A summary of NW himself:

quote: [Nuclear_Winter> Aidun: we move the southernmost caravel 6-6-6, then see if there is an empty landing place (that caravel wasnīt visible by any means short of outright cheat) [Nuclear_Winter> if it isnīt, well, they do have cheated as many fear. [Nuclear_Winter> If it isnīt, we land 3 knights [Nuclear_Winter> and see if the cities are empty. If they are, we know we achieved surprise. [Nuclear_Winter> Then, next turn, if they were killed, weīll be able to estimate their ansar force and location [Kloreep> I'm going to upload a pic of what you're talking about, NW [Nuclear_Winter> ok [Nuclear_Winter> If they werenīt, but the rest of the coast is closed, we use them to clean some bits of coast for the bulk of the landing force. [Nuclear_Winter> Anyway, even if they attack and eliminate us, we gain 1- intel [Nuclear_Winter> 2- we DONīT gain WW (I think they get, but at least we donīt)

Aidun

Edit by Kloreep: Here's a pic

	27-07-2004 00:45									#66
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how much WW would it cause to GWT? make them use another 10% mux slider? If so, do it, since the cost of upgrading and building the knights is microscopic compared to the amount of revenue GWT will lose, and it is only excarerated by the GA.

	27-07-2004 00:51									#67
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We NEED to land, but we need to do so with maximum concentration of force. I strongly suspect that 3 knights will just get slaughtered by the Ansar hordes coming.

I am increasingly leaning towards landing north of Balken.

Why? Both tiles 9 and 8 from Balken allow us to hit Ruhrpott the very next turn due to the culture boundary changing once we take the city. Balkan is likely only defended by that crappy spearman and perhaps their Ansar hordes will not be able to reach so north that turn.

The same can also be said about Elfenhain, with the only added risk that it's closer to their Ansar path. The fact is, either of these two cities, if taken, allow us to strike at Ruhr t he turn after they land. We are basing this on the assumption that GWT is actually unprepared for this, if they are this has a good chance of succeeding.

-MZ

	27-07-2004 01:02									#68
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MZ, donīt you think they will, with time, just close all their coast with workers if needed be? We may not be able to land in 1 turn...

	27-07-2004 01:06									#69
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Well, objectively said, everyone can weigh the advantages of getting info about GWT against the disadvantage of losing three knights.

Keep but in mind that the plan with the Parth strike would have cost six knights, but that could have given us the reward of destroying their FP, while this grants information that could save the destruction of 27 knights.

And it is an attempt to occupy a landing zone, like NW says.

Aidun

	27-07-2004 01:07									#70
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next turn is our only window of opportunity, if we can't land next turn, we likely won't be able to land at all.

They likely also don't have many workers in that area (if at all) since it's already completely developed.

Yes, it's a long shot, considering their Ansar are on the way, we have no choice but to find somewhere to do it, and to do it with force.

	27-07-2004 01:08									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Well, objectively said, everyone can weigh the advantages of getting info about GWT against the disadvantage of losing three knights. Keep but in mind that the plan with the Parth strike would have cost six knights, but that could have given us the reward of destroying their FP, while this grants information that could save the destruction of 27 knights.

Considering that if we land, we might well be assaulted by a massive Ansar force, I'm quite glad we did not divert those 6 knights to Parthe. A stack of 30 is far more fearsome and likely to survive than a stack of 24.

	27-07-2004 01:15									#72
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Let's land the 3. I think it's an excellent idea.

Why?

They can act like a miner's canary for us. If they are destroyed between turns, then we DO NOT land the rest of our forces, as we'll know that GWT has a sizeable counter attack force in the area.

If they aren't destroyed, then we know that GWT does not have the power on hand to fend us off (yet). They can clear the beaches to allow us to land on a tile that gives us a decent shot at Ruhrpott.

This way, we get more options and we get more information, and we desperately need both.

Let's do it.

--Togas

	27-07-2004 01:24									#73
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PLAY THE FREAKIN' SAVE, PEOPLE!

We're past 48 hours already. This is absolutely inexcusable. One of the Consuls needs to crank up Civ and finish out our turn. Now.

We're past the point of excuses and waiting for someone else to tell us what to do. The Consuls need to step up and make a decision and play the save already!

--Togas

	27-07-2004 01:35									#74
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I agree, play the save. My opinion on what to do, however, is probably in the minority. Either way, we need to play and send. Now.

-Arrian

	27-07-2004 02:20									#75
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I am getting a hard time as ambassador.

Aidun

	27-07-2004 04:44									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Let's land the 3. I think it's an excellent idea. Why? They can act like a miner's canary for us. If they are destroyed between turns, then we DO NOT land the rest of our forces, as we'll know that GWT has a sizeable counter attack force in the area. If they aren't destroyed, then we know that GWT does not have the power on hand to fend us off (yet). They can clear the beaches to allow us to land on a tile that gives us a decent shot at Ruhrpott. This way, we get more options and we get more information, and we desperately need both. Let's do it. --Togas

If they have plenty of ansar in the area, why would they kill the knights.
It will mean they are the aggressor in a war, and will take WW hit, (for at least 5 turns).
If they have plenty of ansar, their cities will be safe, & the knights can do very little damage....and leaving them, may suck us in to land a larger force.

If I was GWT & saw 3 knights land, I would think carefully before killing them.

Likewise, we cant assume that just because they survive the landing, that it is safe to land the rest of our forces.

Return home.

	27-07-2004 06:02									#77
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H_E, if GWT has loads of ansar in the area, they will probably open the coast for us to land and not deploy the Galleys, Spears and Horsemen to block us. So, we can assume that they do not have the Ansars but the Ansars are on the way back to the FP.

By landing the 3 knights, we can open up a possible landing site. Should GWT not destroyed the knights next turn, all our knights can land at the same spot. In addition, the empty Caravel which brought the 3 knights can move around the coast to look for better landing sites without us losing precious turns.

	27-07-2004 06:05									#78
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considering they will attack those knights in THEIR territory, they will not get as big a WW hit as we'd wish.

	27-07-2004 06:07									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Togas PLAY THE FREAKIN' SAVE, PEOPLE! We're past 48 hours already. This is absolutely inexcusable. One of the Consuls needs to crank up Civ and finish out our turn. Now. We're past the point of excuses and waiting for someone else to tell us what to do. The Consuls need to step up and make a decision and play the save already! --Togas

Kloreep and I have agreed to play the save ASAP, we only need to work on the orders first. The save isn't being delayed by the cheating controversy, but because orders aren't ready.

	27-07-2004 06:48									#80
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Ok, as a prelude to the save being played, those in chat decided upon moving AIS Zealous 6-6-6 since it couldn't reach Balken anyway. This was the result of the move:

	27-07-2004 06:58									#81
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It seemed they just put the seawall up last turn or so.

	27-07-2004 07:33									#82
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the fact that the Elfen units are not forted, yep, pretty much.

	27-07-2004 07:41									#83
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That horsemen must have been built far off, because any of the three cities in the screenshot would have resulted in that horsemen being fortified.

	27-07-2004 08:59									#84
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Anyways, I had an idea on what to do that even Togas liked, but I don't have time. I'll let someone from chat explain it... gotta run.

	27-07-2004 10:28									#85
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Togas?

	28-07-2004 01:11									#86
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I'll explain:

Trip, MZ, and I were arguing about what we should do. Trip feels that if GWT sees our fleet, they will easily block any landing site, so we need to keep our primary fleet hidden from them.

MZ and I feel that time is of the essence, and that any stalling or redeplying or maneuvering would just give GWT more time to bring in more reinforcements. We have to hit them next turn to have a decent chance at success.

Trip feels that we first need to land, THEN we can worry about our mission.

MZ and I feel that landing somewhere is not enough. Fighting a prolonged war to get to the FP from a distant landing site is not in the cards for us. If we can't get close enough to make a quick strike, then we probably should abort.

After much discussion Trip reminded us that he had found a spot on the map where the fleet could "hide" and still land next turn. He recommended that we move the fleet there. MZ pointed out that the fleet would only have 1 possible landing tile (sort of like our present situation) and if that tile was covered, we'd be screwed.

I told Trip that if we could hide AND land next turn, I'd support it. However, if we can move into a position that gives us plenty of options to land ... AND we feel it's possible that GWT cannot cover all of those options, I would also vote in favor of that.

One very real possibility is that GWT will continue to use galleys to block tiles. Galleys can be destroyed by our Caravels (at some risk) giving us an opening. If that opening is onto the tiles that are close to the FP, I think that would be a excellent move.

--Togas

	28-07-2004 01:20									#87
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Depending on how scarce GWT troops are up here - and how thin they have to spread them - we may need to consider taking on a forted galley to get in - as MZ had suggested earlier. That clearly has risks, and may cost us a boat load, but if there is an uncovered tile behind it - as per the current save, it may be worth it.

(edit - cross-post with Togas. I agree. )

	28-07-2004 01:37									#88
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We will not find any LZ's near the FP; it simply won't happen. If GWT had to rush units, I'm sure they did it.

	28-07-2004 01:48									#89
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When the dust settles we'll be left with a dual seawall blocking build off.

	28-07-2004 02:12									#90
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I agree with Togas

Aidun